Need help for w109 016 300sel/8 6cyl

[marie_70]

Hi everyone,

My friend Olivier that own a w116 lives in north Sydney and gave me your link.

My name is Igor, i am based in Paris suburb, and need some advices concerning a restart for a 1969 300SEL (6 cylinders) BENZ that has been setting in a garage since 1983 (about 33 years without mouving).

Needless to say that the auto is literally lay down on the floor, well almost...

For the ones who do not know, the rear suspenssions are air with additional rubber springs, the front ones are air springs, with rubber springs.

That car is in pretty good condition, appart that i found a karting sitting on its roof with a painter of bunk ladders. The car is absoluty complet has got 45.000km on its clock and only 1 owner. no rust

We can't move it at all, to raise the car it need to be started.
Did not try anything yet.
Can't turn the wheels otherwise they'll touch the fenders i guess

ANY SUGGESTIONS (appart wishing me good luck and patience)

GOT SOME EXPERIENCES AND SKILLS IN MECANICS BUT NEVER BEEN THROU THAT SORT OF ADVENTURE YET (air suspenssion repair)

igor

 

[Michel]

Bonjour Igor et bienvenu au Forum.

This is a great place to be and thank you to Olivier for introducing you to us.
I am not familiar with that set up but we have a few members here who will be able to help you.

Sinon, bonne chance.

 

[marie_70]

Thank you Michel for your response

 

[abl567]

The W109 models are air suspension only, if the air bags, leveling valves and lines and hoses have no major leaks you can introduce compressed air into the system and lift it up to normal level so it can be moved and towed.
In front of the left front wheel under the fender/guard is the air tank, about 1/4 of the way up from the bottom is a Schroeder valve fitting where you can connect a shop air compressor and fill the system with air. You will need at least 150PSI to lift the front, maybe less as yours is an inline 6 hot the M100 V8 in the 6.3, the rear should come up 1st, the front following. If it does not lift listen closely at each corner for air leaks, if they a major enough to prevent to car raising, you will hear them.
If the car will not lift due to major leaks you need to get the car jacked up and chock between the swing axles and body at the rear and the lower wishbones and frame rails at the front with timber, or if you are really lucky, the emergency suspension buffers in the boot.
The hard part is getting a jack under the jack point with the car so low, and you need both front or back wheels off the ground at the same time for the suspension to drop when you lift the car, the sway bars mean you cannot do a corner at a time.
Hope this helps, ask away!
Ant

 

[Styria]

G'd day, Igor. Welcome to Aussie country. If you experience any language difficulties, our mutual friend Olivier will always come to the rescue. Now, regarding your 300SEL. Unless I am mistaken, another forum member and friend of Anthony (abl 567) has exactly the the one and same model as the car in your possession - if it is fitted with the 280 6 cylinder engine, it is very rare indeed. Mercedes replaced the original M189 3 litre engine in 1968 on account of costs.

In most respects, Igor, Anthony has covered the subject matter very well, but there are a couple of aspects to this work that I can add to. Firstly, you obviously want to move the car - will you be wanting to repair/restore the car, or is it just a matter of moving it from one area to another ? Whichever, the first issue you may have to address is leakage from Air Bags once you are able to pump air into the system by means of the Schrader Valve Anthony has referred to. The bags are bound to be damaged or perished after such a long lay-off. There is also the matter of the Schrader Valve - its location under the left front guard is such that you will need a special right angled fitting to attach to the valve in order to introduce Air Pressure to the car's suspension system.

There is also another little trick that these cars get up to. In the past, I have found that,when jacking up the car, the suspension system remains "rigid" - in other words, the wheel (especially the rears) will lift in unison with the car, which can prevent you from removing the wheels from the car because you cannot lift it off as the bottom of the rear guard does not have enough clearance. Last but not least, you may well find that the jack supplied with the car initially is your best means of lifting the car high enough to enable usage of a proper rolling jack. Of course, you will also need the appropriate rubber buffers (it would help) to hold the car up once it has been lifted. The fronts are difficult to fit as access is limited, but it can be done. Good luck with this work and try and keep in touch. Regards. Styria

 

[marie_70]

Dear Styria,

Glad to have found people on the other side of the planet, that feel concern on this not easy project.

To be honest with you, i am not surprised of the difficulties that we'll meet to solve the first step, "moving it from one area to another" without causing any damages on the auto is the way to go.

As you can guess i have not got the appropriate rubber buffers to keep it in the "normal" position to roll it on a trailer; some informations on dimenssions of these hard rubber blocks ? some pictures would be welcome ....

On Saturday we'll go back to have a real close look at it.
There is already one think that i can tell, we'll not attempt anything in the precipitation....

I will let you know for sure how goes thinks.
Pictures will be done if necessairy.
Thanks for the informations.
BEST REGARDS
igor

 

[marie_70]

Hi,
found that for sale in the French alps,
as no titles
http://www.lesanciennes.com/annonce...5-1970.html?ftype=&fcat=&search=mercedes:eek:

 

[marie_70]

Hi everyone,
Our Saturday trip back to the W109 016 was pretty successful.

We did half of the way of the first step: "mouving it from one area to another"

- We did locate the engine air compressor in the motor bay.
- We find out the outer air line wich goes to the air tank.
- After a bit of battle to untight the 17mm nut on the outer line from the air compressor, the line was stuck and finilly came off after a few gentle taps at its base.
- Using a piece of hose and clamps we blow air into the line to the air tank from a compressor we bring with us
- Slowly the car starts to raise a its back, without any air leaks, i could not believe it !!!! then it starts raised at the front. it tooks approximately 10 good minutes to reach the high level
- A roller jack were used to get the rear wheels of the ground to move the car on the side and get it on a good axle of the garage door, as soon as the wheels went of the floor we noticed that some air escape from somewhere.... at the front ???
then when the jack was lowered, the rear was so low that we could not get our jack out of the way.
- So we restarted the procedure of blowing air in the system, and the car raised again. At this time there were no leaks whatsoever.
- We could push the car back and forth, turning the steering wheel, what surprised to discover that none of the callipers were seized!!! wich is completly amazing. The big BENZ is now in the right orientation for a trailer load, maybe tomorrow hopefully.
On the way back home I ended up asking if you leave the car up in the top position was well...in my heart I do not think.. we'll see that next time.

 

[abl567]

Good job, as the system has lifted the front and rear it is in reasonable shape. The air escaping when you lifted the wheels off the ground is the system working as intended, the leveling valve at the rear is sensing the rear is too high so exhausting air out through the main valve, the component on the right side of your 1st photo. If you line the notch on the disc on top of the main valve, the one with the bowden cable attached, with the hole in the body of the valve, it will be in lock position and the car will stay up if there are no leaks in the lines or bags. It looks to be in the high ride position so turn it clockwise until the notch reveals the hole.

 

[marie_70]

Did not get there today, the guy we expected on with his trailer, did not show up.

Here is an intresting German parts suppliers i used sometime for a friend's
W113 pagode 280 SL.
They gots lots of parts that would surely intrest you.
i am pretty sure that you probably know about them, in case:

http://www.niemoeller.de/home-en.htm

Anyways here is the PDF catalogue:

http://www.niemoeller.de/mercedes-b...log-mercedes-benz-108-109-110-111-112-113.htm

We'll try towing the car during this week, will let you know

 

[Styria]

Hi Igor, you're 10%, maybe 15, on the way to restoring the car. Obviously, you are going to move it to another location. You did well with getting air into the car's suspension compressor. I had never thought of doing it that way . Thank you for the Niemoller details - many years ago, I had one of their catalogues, but alas never got around to patronizing them.

The referral to the car in the Alps is a good one - I am still in the process of investigating the site as best as possible. Keep in touch. Regards Styria

 

[marie_70]

Hello,
On Saturday we went back to get the car on a trolley to bring it back at the woreshop.
Soon as we arrived i saw the car back on the floor, we injected the air in the system the car starts to get up, but this time air leaks appears at the rear side on the right side.
Well the leak at this time was not important enough and let us some time to get the car on the trolley with the air compressor still connected with à long air hose, but the air escapes more faster every minute, we could ear the increase of the air noise while we moved the car on.
Was a bit tricky but no real problem to get the car on the platform.
Before going back to the garage we stopped to the gas station and get some hard wood block instead of the emergency rubbers at the back. so we did that directly on the truck cause they were no others ways to get the car back on the ground, the important air leaks at rear did not let the car anymore to get at the minimum operating level.
When the car was seated in the garden, the left front starts to leak as well when we injected air for the last time.
the Benz is now at our garage ready to get inspected and hopefully getting the right maintenance diagnostic to get fixed and restarts. A huge work in perspective.
The engine is almost seized, probably cylinders 2 and 5 i guess (the plugs their, was really hard to get off, rusty in the threads that was exceeds in the cynlinders)
All the rubbers, ties rod, hoses, lines, ect,,, need to be changed, the alternator is kind of seized, the water pump too.
Well any advices concerning a complete front & rear drive train dismantling are more then welcome.
I had to get the whole engine rebuilt i think.
Have to think what i am gonna start by ???
will let you know
igor

think to

 

[Helmet]

Firstly I love the 3rd pic in the post above.
If this car has sentimental value then you have to restore it at any cost. If not then you are going to be out of pocket in the short term and will have rescued a piece of history. You are probably able to buy a running version for half the cost of restoration, ball is in your court.

 

[CraigS]

If you decide to restore the car and rebuild the engine, I can help with new pistons.

 

[marie_70]

Hello every one,
We began to work in the engine bay, we really wanted having an idea about the engine condition.
We started with filling each cylinders with diesel gazol in the plugs holes.
To access the crankshaft pulley/damper big nut we had to remove the radiators, fan, hoses, and turn the crankshaft with a 1 meter pry bar, the old 33 years oil that has been seated in there is so sticky that it needed a good effort to achieve a full revolution.
By the way the camshaft cover has been removed to have a look at the tappets and valves operations while we turn the crankshaft. it seems that the car did not have a really good care in the oil choice or change, this is my own guess when regarding the lobes on the camshaft.
Needless to say that a full tear down program is to consider for a well done engine maintenance.
The air filter and his box, water pump, alternator, coil & plugs hardness,
front brakes, front air bags & canisters, air tank, rear brakes, and the complete exhaust line has been removed.
The exhaust line stays down on the floor under the car at the moment, we cannot get it away at the front cause, it is in one piece from front to rear so it's difficult to move it and turn it up side down in a car that is setting on floor stands, we just gonna chop it off to get it out of the way .
At the moment we did not loose or break anything yet (personally i'am pretty happy of that) lots of brushing, cleaning, WD40, patience and determination was the thinks to get there.
This is a long job we are getting into. our idea now, is to up date the routine maintenances on drive trains, suspensions, breaks, fuel injection, gearbox, differential, without taking the whole of the car apart, painting & interior will stays in the original condition.This base is very healthy and free of rust.
Hope electricities would be well.
Hopefully tomorrow the rear air bags & canisters, fuel pump, gas tank, and the whole injection and lines on the engine should be removed.
We'll let you know.

 

[marie_70]

Thank you Craig for your proposition about new pistons, can you tell us some more about its, are the chambers, rings, axles, comes with it.
Are they stock ?
any pics and price would be nice
Usually when needed we deal with Vossner in Germany, don't know yet if they got those ones.
let us know
regards
igor

 

[CraigS]

They are a custom made, forged alloy piston. Here is a link. You can see the original one next to it.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/...edes Pistons/W186pistonset005_zps450d622d.jpg

They fit all 3lt motors from 1952 to 1969 or so. Aside from the modern design, they are lighter by 30% and have a higher compression (adjustable). They are supplied with rings and pins.

Price is in the region of USD 2100 plus shipping. Less expensive than Mercedes pistons, rings and pins, but considerably better.

 

[Styria]

They are a custom made, forged alloy piston. Here is a link. You can see the original one next to it.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/...edes Pistons/W186pistonset005_zps450d622d.jpg

They fit all 3lt motors from 1952 to 1969 or so. Aside from the modern design, they are lighter by 30% and have a higher compression (adjustable). They are supplied with rings and pins.

Price is in the region of USD 2100 plus shipping. Less expensive than Mercedes pistons, rings and pins, but considerably better.

Craig, beautiful workmanship on those Pistons. Tell me - from what I seem to recall, you did have some issues with that engine in your 300. Did you manage to address the problem ? BTW, I suspect that the car Igor in France is working on, is more than likely the M130 six cylinder 280 engine, rather than the "old" original M189 unit. Regards. Styria

 

[marie_70]

Hello,
We are lucky, the sun shines on the Benz every day since Sunday.
Tonight, all the Parts are boxed, any advice to get the block out of the car ?
Do i need to get the bonnet off the car to lift up and get it out ?
Does anyone knows if the injection pump is the good one (cause the seller has to change it, he gave us the old one that was originally mounted on the car)
Had some hard time getting the starter away to get some space to extricate the exhaust line in one part.

Regards
Igor

 

[marie_70]

Here are some pict of the parts removed:
tank & pump / air bags canisters & tank /alternator & starter / air filter box / wheels parts breaks / radiators / cooling hoses / water pump / starter hardness.
The water pump is seized in the housing, any suggestion to get it off ?
igor