Mercedes V8 Inlet Manifolds
- Thread starter Oversize
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- Thread Starter
- #224
The trouble with multi plenums & throttles is that you can potentially halve the volume & velocity of air through each & it makes any pressure variations more significant. I looked at the 450SLC & initially thought it’s just a std 6.3 manifold with a slightly different shape, but I then realized it’s a cross ram design, which is more like the Rote Sau 6.8 and the opposite to the factory 6.3
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- #228
Well some things happen all at once & looks like I’m sending the ‘template car’ to the new fabricator 16th Sept. Intake & exhaust will be done at the same time. I’ve resigned myself to the fact the current guy has put it all on the back burner indefinitely. I needed more of a go getter with a can do attitude to see the project finished.
The reasoning for swapping bw cars is I need parts off the template car to get the development car RWC & registered. Then I can progressively mod & dyno to test each change & see its effect.
Here’s a couple of pix which were added to other threads on similar subjects.
The reasoning for swapping bw cars is I need parts off the template car to get the development car RWC & registered. Then I can progressively mod & dyno to test each change & see its effect.
Here’s a couple of pix which were added to other threads on similar subjects.
- Thread Starter
- #230
Note these interesting heads from an Aston Martin. Clearly a hemi design to improve flow but only 2v. Considering their size you’d think they’d opt for 4v to improve flow even more. However that does increase complexity, manufacturing costs & weight for how much gain?
It’d be nice to have something similar for the 6.9 & M117, however I doubt many would be willing to pay for the privilege & very few would be prepared to modify a valuable 6.9. Therefore not financially viable as a future project. Plus there’s likely no room left in the engine bay to house such bulky components and exhaust headers.
It’d be nice to have something similar for the 6.9 & M117, however I doubt many would be willing to pay for the privilege & very few would be prepared to modify a valuable 6.9. Therefore not financially viable as a future project. Plus there’s likely no room left in the engine bay to house such bulky components and exhaust headers.
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- #231
Well I guess there’s 4v versions of the M117 and of course we can’t forget the M119. They’re just very rare compared to the standard M117. It seems MKB are recasting the 4v cylinder heads, but it’s unknown if they’ll produce all the other components to convert a 2v to 4v, or if they’re just doing it because there was an issue with the original units being porous.
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- #232
Not exactly manifold specific, however I did drop into my fabricator yesterday. He’s acquired some very specialised equipment which will make the fabrication easier. I gave him an update on the new design & removed the pulley and balancer to install the pulse wheel & sensor. I’m also currently putting together a presentation for a specific manufacturer re patent licensing. The project continues.
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- #233
Well I had a couple of setbacks this past week. Caught Influenza A which knocked me over for 2 whole days. Still getting over that a week later. While off work a mate got robbed with 4 cars stolen from his property! With a couple of cars stored there I was very concerned. Fortunately my cars weren’t taken but they might’ve taken the key for one. Until I go out & check myself I’ll be stressed cause they could come back & take the car. I intend to upgrade security with Clublocks, GPS locators & a new trail camera.
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- #234
The second blow hit me even harder. While laid up I started searching US patents. The official site is clunky & horrible so I had to resort to a third party search function. Unless you know exactly what you’re after & you think outside the box with key words you’ll never find anything. But (unfortunately) I did.
It now looks like someone did patent perhaps 1/3 of my design. Despite it being more complex in the execution the principals remain the same. And the way it’s worded I don’t think mine could be regarded as a new design. Part of me felt like giving up, but then I thought my configuration has no mechanical elements to wear out & cause any power loss. Plus mine would be far cheaper to install.
The patent was first registered way back in the mid 80s. The current one expires in 11 years which is too long to just wait out. The inventor was a private individual & its assigned to a major manufacturer in China. What is curious is why the patent has never been used by the owner or anyone else. There’s a few possibilities. Too expensive, too complex, doesn’t work, or cost vs benefit doesn’t stack up. Or they just wish to hold back ICE development due to their EV aspirations. However that doesn’t explain the lengthy period when EVs weren’t competition.
So it looks like I’ll just hold my ground for now. Complete the prototype so I can prove it works & then hopefully negotiate mutually beneficial terms with the patent holder.
Cross all my fingers I don’t find any other patents that relate to the remaining 2/3 of my invention!
Sorry I still have to be very coy about the specifics but hopefully someday soon I’ll reveal all my cards in a driving 560SEL!
It now looks like someone did patent perhaps 1/3 of my design. Despite it being more complex in the execution the principals remain the same. And the way it’s worded I don’t think mine could be regarded as a new design. Part of me felt like giving up, but then I thought my configuration has no mechanical elements to wear out & cause any power loss. Plus mine would be far cheaper to install.
The patent was first registered way back in the mid 80s. The current one expires in 11 years which is too long to just wait out. The inventor was a private individual & its assigned to a major manufacturer in China. What is curious is why the patent has never been used by the owner or anyone else. There’s a few possibilities. Too expensive, too complex, doesn’t work, or cost vs benefit doesn’t stack up. Or they just wish to hold back ICE development due to their EV aspirations. However that doesn’t explain the lengthy period when EVs weren’t competition.
So it looks like I’ll just hold my ground for now. Complete the prototype so I can prove it works & then hopefully negotiate mutually beneficial terms with the patent holder.
Cross all my fingers I don’t find any other patents that relate to the remaining 2/3 of my invention!
Sorry I still have to be very coy about the specifics but hopefully someday soon I’ll reveal all my cards in a driving 560SEL!
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- #235
Oh I should mention the remaining 2/3 of the design will function perfectly without the 1/3 and still be more efficient than current designs. It’s just I’d prefer to complete the package & optimise the performance & efficiency benefits.
ProfessorExperimental
Noble
Please don't take this as criticism, I certainly have no idea of the ins and outs of your project (obviously), financing, production capability nor market analysis.
It's pretty obvious to me that everyone in the local "photonics/optical physics/future tech" world (a part of which was my employer for the past 4.5 years, and other parts of which I've had various links to over the past 10) views patents in the following way:
-worthless, unless specifically and non-negotiably required by otherwise completely-on-board investors (typically US, and then typically only US patents)
-virtually impossible to enforce, since litigation, especially in overseas jurisdictions, is simply too costly for any small enterprise/startup and entirely contingent on precise, decisive, and most problematically time-consuming investigation to establish infringement, even if the time doesn't amount to a defacto loss of the whole market.
-disastrously distracting and expensive to acquire, at exactly the time in the product life cycle where especially the small start up should be focusing on building market awareness and nursing the early production iterations into customers hands, ready for the inevitable gotchas and teething problems that any new product will have.
-literally not worth the paper the certificate is printed on the instant any significant or decisive component is to be manufactured cheaply overseas. All offshore manufacturing facilities operate substantial side-/back-channel systems to maximise profit. If you don't keep all the patent-relevant manufacturing in-house or at least in-country, your patent wasn't worth bothering with.
In addition, ask yourself some of the questions any startup accelerator "coach" would:
-what is your win? Sell company? Sell IP? Make, package, market, sell, after-sales-support and defend your product?
-what is your growth plan to achieve that?
-what is your funding strategy to achieve *that*?
I may be completely wrong, but it reads like you're doing all the product development yourself, all the prototyping by one or the other local fabricator, and planning to do the bulk of the IP protection yourself too (based on you doing the us patent search, rather than your legal team). Where do you see your seed funding round coming from? Do you have VCs already interested? On what terms? For a performance kit for an engine that hasn't been manufactured in 35 years...
Your setback re the patent seems, *to me*, like the biggest helping hand your project could have gotten. In my opinion the fact your "competitor" has made nothing of their (costly!) IP in the time since the patent was assigned is, in and of itself, the best possible argument against pursuing patent "protection" for your designs.
It's pretty obvious to me that everyone in the local "photonics/optical physics/future tech" world (a part of which was my employer for the past 4.5 years, and other parts of which I've had various links to over the past 10) views patents in the following way:
-worthless, unless specifically and non-negotiably required by otherwise completely-on-board investors (typically US, and then typically only US patents)
-virtually impossible to enforce, since litigation, especially in overseas jurisdictions, is simply too costly for any small enterprise/startup and entirely contingent on precise, decisive, and most problematically time-consuming investigation to establish infringement, even if the time doesn't amount to a defacto loss of the whole market.
-disastrously distracting and expensive to acquire, at exactly the time in the product life cycle where especially the small start up should be focusing on building market awareness and nursing the early production iterations into customers hands, ready for the inevitable gotchas and teething problems that any new product will have.
-literally not worth the paper the certificate is printed on the instant any significant or decisive component is to be manufactured cheaply overseas. All offshore manufacturing facilities operate substantial side-/back-channel systems to maximise profit. If you don't keep all the patent-relevant manufacturing in-house or at least in-country, your patent wasn't worth bothering with.
In addition, ask yourself some of the questions any startup accelerator "coach" would:
-what is your win? Sell company? Sell IP? Make, package, market, sell, after-sales-support and defend your product?
-what is your growth plan to achieve that?
-what is your funding strategy to achieve *that*?
I may be completely wrong, but it reads like you're doing all the product development yourself, all the prototyping by one or the other local fabricator, and planning to do the bulk of the IP protection yourself too (based on you doing the us patent search, rather than your legal team). Where do you see your seed funding round coming from? Do you have VCs already interested? On what terms? For a performance kit for an engine that hasn't been manufactured in 35 years...
Your setback re the patent seems, *to me*, like the biggest helping hand your project could have gotten. In my opinion the fact your "competitor" has made nothing of their (costly!) IP in the time since the patent was assigned is, in and of itself, the best possible argument against pursuing patent "protection" for your designs.
- Thread Starter
- #237
You make some very valid points; have you been speaking to my wife lol? I tend to agree as well, so the aim is to avoid registering a patent myself unless absolutely necessary. Even then I may not go ahead. There are interim measures that can be made to gain leverage for negotiation which are more likely.
This was never a full time endeavour, more a hobby that’s evolved into something more substantial. Clearly I don’t have the resources to tip into it on a corporate level so I’m just managing with what I have available.
I agree there would be little point if the project application was solely on early Benz engines. In fact word I’m hearing now is many are slowly gaining value & so owners are even less likely to modify their cars. This project has multiple applications including all ICEs and isn’t limited to passenger vehicles. Petrol or diesel plus various configurations & cylinder numbers.
My recent update was to gain some feedback no matter the nature so I’m grateful for opinions on the subject.
This was never a full time endeavour, more a hobby that’s evolved into something more substantial. Clearly I don’t have the resources to tip into it on a corporate level so I’m just managing with what I have available.
I agree there would be little point if the project application was solely on early Benz engines. In fact word I’m hearing now is many are slowly gaining value & so owners are even less likely to modify their cars. This project has multiple applications including all ICEs and isn’t limited to passenger vehicles. Petrol or diesel plus various configurations & cylinder numbers.
My recent update was to gain some feedback no matter the nature so I’m grateful for opinions on the subject.
ProfessorExperimental
Noble
No worries. I found my last job pretty eye opening regarding the reality of tech innovation vs IP protection, totally different to the preconceptions I had which, in hindsight, were heavily skewed by patent lawyer marketing.
Happy to discuss how/if what minimal insights I have to the tech startup world might be relevant to you via pm/email if you like, nda ok etc.
Just didn't want to see you fall into some of the traps that have eaten more than a few decent ideas in the last little while...
Happy to discuss how/if what minimal insights I have to the tech startup world might be relevant to you via pm/email if you like, nda ok etc.
Just didn't want to see you fall into some of the traps that have eaten more than a few decent ideas in the last little while...
- Thread Starter
- #239
Now if you know about patents you’d be aware they last for 20 years & cannot be renewed. Therefore the patent in question has been re-filed at least 3 times at great expense. Which leads me to believe they’ve never built a prototype.
Why squat on a patent for nearly 40 years if you knew it didn’t work?
Why not use the design if you knew it did work?
Why squat on a patent for nearly 40 years if you knew it didn’t work?
Why not use the design if you knew it did work?
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