Auto Trans demise

[sean sherry]

It has occured to me the reason why my old Transmission Shop founded in 1967, has folded it's tent. There is no more maintenance on Transmissions. Our C Class is sealed for life, At 70,000 Ks the oil still looks like new. Last of the 5 speeds
Our Camry Hybrid has no moving Parts.. no Torque Converter .. no Bands or Clutches. no Maintenance ever. Not ever the Batteries.
Twin Clutch Automatic Manuals won't stay the distance They are neither one thing or the other. Neither a Manual nor an Automatic. The efficiency of a Manual ..yes.. and the convenience of an Automatic .. yes... but at what cost $$$$ to repair.
A neighbour who has a multiple Car Dealership tells me that Transmissions today are not repaired at dealer level. Any internal problems are resolved by changing the Transmission and returning the old Unit to the Manufacturer.

 

[c107]

It has occured to me the reason why my old Transmission Shop founded in 1967, has folded it's tent. There is no more maintenance on Transmissions. Our C Class is sealed for life, At 70,000 Ks the oil still looks like new. Last of the 5 speeds
Our Camry Hybrid has no moving Parts.. no Torque Converter .. no Bands or Clutches. no Maintenance ever. Not ever the Batteries.
Twin Clutch Automatic Manuals won't stay the distance They are neither one thing or the other. Neither a Manual nor an Automatic. The efficiency of a Manual ..yes.. and the convenience of an Automatic .. yes... but at what cost $$$$ to repair.
A neighbour who has a multiple Car Dealership tells me that Transmissions today are not repaired at dealer level. Any internal problems are resolved by changing the Transmission and returning the old Unit to the Manufacturer.

Yes, I would have thought that a small number of shops can survive doing work for classic cars only, but the mainstream industry goes away.

Those classic specialists will need to have good relationships with the classic mechanics and restorers to have work referred to them.

 

[sean sherry]

Yes Bryce but they will all be dead soon. The past experience will go with them.

Other Transmissions that have died a quick death....
Automated Manuals... Smiths Easy Drive Rootes Group, a disaster
Man- u -Matics by BMC , an Auto Clutch controlled by a gear lever Button.
Mini -Matics. And Front Wheel drives Austin 1800s A BW 35 of sorts.
All seemed a good idea at the time !

 

[BenzBoy]

These folk are alive and thriving: http://autotransaustralia.com.au/
Regards,
Brian

 

[sean sherry]

All well and Good Brian.... Take them a Cast Iron Torqueflite or a Cast Iron Powerglide or a Cast Iron Hydramatic, and see how you get on. Or anything from the Fifties. Established in the Eighties they are newcomers to the Specialty Trade. Rolls Royce and Bentley fitted tha Cast Iron Hydramatic for many Years.
Hard Parts for these Transmission were available from the USA Army's Staghound weapons Carriers. The same parts from R.R. required a Gold Brick !! Even the Lincolns in the Fifties used this Transmission before they used their own "Ford-O -Matic.".. a BW. 12 in disguise.
Probably Paradise Garage still have knowledge on the old Hydramatics,and I guess the later Turbine 400s used by R.R. and Jaguar V12s. Both Cars using the Turbine 400 can be made to shift properly by fitting a Vacuum Modulator from a Pontiac. Raising the Throttle Valve Pressure ( T.V.) to cure the sloppy 1-2 shifts.

 

[BenzBoy]

If in doubt I would go to Paradise (they recommend ATA for the 80s onwards) and if Paradise is in doubt I guess they might contact you.
Regards,
Brian

 

[Styria]

Sean, for the sake of curiosity and general and specific knowledge, I would like to pose a few questions that you may be able to elaborate on.

Firstly - Rover P5B with V8 engine - I have always maintained that the BW35 transmission was too much of a lightweight unit to cope with the weight of the car. That same transmission was also fitted to the 6 cylinder Mark III, and it was a tiresome car to drive. I used to listen to V8s reversing up steepish driveways, and you could hear the Torque Converter working overtime trying to crest the incline. Do you have any thoughts on my opinions/assertions ?

Secondly, the DG transmissions fitted to the 6 cylinder Rovers as well as some Jaguar models, as well as Humbers, Daimler Majestic Majors (with the Turner 4.5 litre V8) and others, what are its origins ? BW, World War 2 Troup Carriers ?

Thirdly, did Mercedes Automatic transmissions of the '60's as in the W111/112 and W108/109 basically copy the DG transmission as fitted to the British cars, and did Mercedes themselves manufacture their transmissions, or was the design and manufacture sublet to other Companies, such as Borg Warner ?

Really look forward to your opinions. Regards. Styria

 

[sean sherry]

BW 35 in Rover V8s a Boy trying to do a Man's Job ! Ditto in Jaguars XJ6 after the DGs in the MK 1 and 11s. DGs were designed and built in America. I doubt that Mercedes built the DGs they fitted to the 300s. Would have been an enormous tooling cost for such a small volume. Strangely enough the overworked Torque converters in all the BW 35s never gave any trouble. In the later Chrysler Valiants after the excellent American Torque Flites in AP5/6, the BW Torque Converters in the 35s, fell to pieces.
Not BW's fault... Chrysler would not pay BW to Furnace Braze the impeller blades, just bend them over.
Staghound Troupe Carriers were fitted with Cast Iron Hydramatics long before BW came on the scene.
As for Mercedes coping BW, well most newer designs stand on the shoulders of those who went before.
As a further matter of interest The so called Trimatic in Holden's
was a "Strasberg"3 speed designed by Chev. for the 2 litre European Market.
As the design was dependant on the spring quality for the Valve bodies ( all bore sizes were the same ) The spring wire was sourced from Swedish Steel.
Local manufacture seemed to use Hoop Iron sourced locally. That's' why we had so much trouble getting them calibrated at rebuild time and before ! Then to put them behind 3 litre engines to compound the issues. And a 5 litre V8 !! A nightmare to stop the 2nd gear clutches from shuddering. More common to all was that the Reverse clutches disintegrated. Inferior material.
We sourced higher quality Clutch Plates from a company on Long Island N.Y.

 

[c107]

In one of the books I have it mentions that mercedes studied the Hydramatic before they built their first auto. If you think about it, it makes sense as the design of the original four speed is similar in many ways to the hydramatic - e.g. no torque converter, four speeds etc.

DG on the other hand being basically a two speed with a lock up torque converter as the 3rd is a totally different design.

 

[Michel]

Am I right to say the the GM Turbo400 is/was the toughest, yet smoothest box available?
I know Chrysler’s Torqueflite 727 is meant to be the strongest, but I never found it as smooth as GM’s T400.

 

[Oversize]

I’d suggest the correct trans is more important than the engine! And I like to use them in manual mode (unless I have durability concerns).

I disagree with ‘maintenance free’ boxes and believe they should be serviced at least every 100k km where possible.

Which brings me to another issue of what ATF should we now be using in boxes for the 6.9 & 560? I think I was using Transmax M but that’s probsbly old hat & long gone now...

 

[c107]

Which brings me to another issue of what ATF should we now be using in boxes for the 6.9 & 560? I think I was using Transmax M but that’s probsbly old hat & long gone now...

I've been using Penrite DX-III based on the recommendation from their website based on putting the model into their lookup system.

 

[sean sherry]

Interesting comment that a DG is basically a two speed box and a very complicated one at that. Multiple Bands, two sprag Clutches and a multi Plate intermediate Clutch Pack Later design were much simpler Two speed Fords and Powerglides from G.M. The DGs were prone to a lot of Mechanical wear. The "Steam Engine" Governor Valve and the 2nd gear lockout, via a Solenoid was also troublesome, especially in Mk11 Jaguars. Torque Convertor Clutch for Top Gear also gave a lot of grief as the large Friction Plate got glazed. Major surgery to repair it. We built a special Jig to cut it open and a very slow turning speed for the Lathe to weld it up again.. My Manager and myself became very accomplished at hand welding them back together, leak free, in our home made pressure water test. Today there are specialist Convertor Shops, back in the Sixties and Seventies we had to do everything in House. Even make our own specialist Tools, well my Manager did.
A very skilled Machinist. We were a good team he said, as he lay Dying at 74.

 

[sean sherry]

OILS.. I have not been able to get a definitive answer to the question of mixing Synthetic Trans Oils with the original Mineral oils., when doing an oil change. It is impossible to fully drain an Auto, even those with a drain plug in the Torque Convertor. Will they mix ???? my local guy only has Synthetic oil in bulk.

 

[Styria]

Sean, I am really appreciating your knowledgeable comments in your posts. In due course, I will have some further questions pertaining to the DG Boxes. BTW, were they made by Borg Warner ?

Onto another matter. Fluid Coupling on the 6.3 Mercedes Boxes - did you have any means of testing those for leaks ? Also, as you would probably be aware, they have a huge rubber sealing ring that would cost a fortune if purchased from Mercedes. Was there an alternative that you may have been able to use ?

Regarding Torque Converters - did you ever have any dealings with Kayver Engineering or Pendlebury & Sons for that matter ? Many questions, but so much interested in your valued opinions. Regards Styria

 

[motec 6.9]

I do know with research my Trimatic from my Kommando which is fitted behind a 250 or 4.1 liter Chevy 6 is called a TH180 transmission. Interestingly mine has TH bellhousing as the Chevy 6 used same as Chevy V8.

 

[sean sherry]

I was a Director and part owner of ATP ( Pendlebury) I was the purchasing Officer for the Transmission Parts. We never did have Mercedes Parts .. there was no demand.

 

[c107]

I was a Director and part owner of ATP ( Pendlebury) I was the purchasing Officer for the Transmission Parts. We never did have Mercedes Parts .. there was no demand.

Sean was that because the transmissions were not as prone to failure, or that there were other shops that were getting the work and you guys were focused more on other transmissions?

 

[sean sherry]

Design parameters that don't translate......
The Strasberg 3 Speed ( Trimatic ) was designed for small European Cars travelling down motorways at high Revs. The Planetary gear System was self aligning to cope with up to 6000 RPM. Coping with slow revving, high torque in 3 to 5 litres engines were beyond its design parameters.
The opposite issue was the GM Turbo 400, designed for the low revs, and high torque of large American Engines. Behind a high revving Jaguar V12 it was not happy. Driving down the British Motorways at speed , the intermediate Clutches failed. They were ok in large Rolls Royce, lightly tuned Engines, except that Rolls then fitted a soft Modulator to reduce the T.V. pressures to give smooth, sloppy, shift pattern. Was not a very bright idea, but it helped to sell Cars to the rear seat occupants. The UK never did produce a successful Auto Trans. The volume production of the BW 35 all came to tears when they lost the Ford contract through sheer bloody mindedness. Same reason they lost their Motorcycle industry. Their local Car industry soon followed suit. And dare I say it, we eventually went the same way for the same reasons.

 

[sean sherry]

I ran a volume Transmission Shop Bryce. Concentrating on Mostly BW and GM powerglides and then Trimatics .. I had about 60 exchange Units on the shelf so that we could turn around most Cars in 4 hours. $$$$$$s
The most common plaintiff cry was, How am I going to get to work without "ME" car., when advised that we would need the Car overnight to effect the repairs. Even though the Repair would cost about half that of a rebuilt Unit with a 12 month Guarantee. Oh good, I can have my car back the same Day. They would elect to pay the cost difference. You cannot protect People against themselves !! I ran an honest Business ,doing quality work to earn my living. About 90% of my customers came via word of mouth, not advertising.
A Business is not a charity ,as a lot of People seem to think that Banks should be.
How to beat the Banks... buy their Shares for a 7 to 9% grossed up dividend return. Don't lend them money for a 2% return less Tax !