Fanciful packaging - car care

[OzBenzHead]

[...] I threw out all of my Meguiars stuff except for their cloth cleaner spray.

I made the mistake some months ago, when I couldn't get my usual shampoo (Mother's), of buying a bottle of Meguiar's. Puke! It smelled like the Avon lady after she'd had a bad accident with her samples!

I would assume that the video was shot outdoors just for convenience.

I did wonder about that, though the place it was filmed in front of appeared to be an undercover car park rather than a detailing shop. Perhaps it was just a good location for publicity.

The owner of the black Arnage made me cringe just a tad...

He reminded me of the type of character one might find in Steptoe and Son or Minder. (Yes, I did watch tv a bit in the '70s and remember those shows.)

 

[BenzBoy]

In the initial post Styria asked;

'Firstly, Panel Beater's clay. Those who have used it will more than likely testify how, so cunningly, it can remove surface impurities in paintwork. Sure, not as good as a 1500 cut-back and buff, but nevertheless a great product to use. The question I have is this: Does it, after SEVERAL applications, over a period of time, affect the basic quality and durability of your paintwork ? I have been told that it doesn't, but would be grateful for further qualified and informative opinions.'

I had a look at the Zymol website and here is what they say;

'Acid rain, road silt and fallout are the enemy of paint. Water and zymöl Clear wash away the loose particulates but not the embedded pollution. The sun acts as a catalyst to help these paint-toxic pollutants penetrate and destroy your paint. Lehm-Klay, a Professional natural cleaner and conditioner for automotive paint, is a superior remedy for acid rain etch, moderate abrasions, bird droppings and light oxidation. Lehm-Klay removes marring and soils through microscopic polishing and cleaning without harm to new or old paintwork. Important: zymöl Lehm-Klay is a Professional product and is designed to provide maximum results with minimum product application, use gently and only for emergency service.


Ingredients:
Naturally derived and produced from Kaolin Clay from Africa and Chalcedony Quartz from North America.'

I know that does not fully answer Styria but it does point us in a particular direction - 'use gently and only for emergency service'

Regards,
Benz-Boy

 

[WGB]

I would have thought any abrasive clay or paper was definitely "emergency use" or "one time use" only.

I find the thought of multiple or regular uses quite scary.

Bill

 

[E200K]

I've used a clay bar and the results were pretty good. I'm not so sure about emergency use only. I know people who say that waxing a car that hasn’t been clayed is like putting a car cover on a dirty vehicle before washing it.

 

[Parks]

Clay bars are not abrasive at all, they clean your paint, I believe they should be used on your car every 6 months or so, I wouldnt be using 1500 or 2000 wet and dry cos you will be actually taking paint off cos thats why they are called abrasive papers, besides cutting and buffing with 1500 or 2000 on a old paint is a big no no!!!! and thats come from one of the best painters in the game, clays what is used in the new car yards when they have been sitting out in the open for a while....regards Brent

 

[OzBenzHead]

Kaolin clay ... Hmmm. Kaolin is what coated papers (e.g. most printing papers that are treated for absorbency, colour fastness, and other good printing qualities) is treated with. It is also the base of many "digestion" medicines. It is commonly referred to as "China Clay", and belongs to the class alumino-silicates.

Chalcedony Quartz: the two words are used interchangeably by mineralogists, and can mean any of a wide variety of quartzes - and quartz is a silicate.

Silicates are related to silicone (well, t'other way around, I think), so I'd be wary of using them on car paint.

Silicone-containing polishes are the spray-painter's worst enemy; if you need to patch the paint on a car that has been silicone treated, it's almost impossible to remove the stuff. Even a single molecule of silicone left on the prepped surface can cause new, wet paint to "fisheye", leaving a tiny hole in the paint. Not a good look for concours.

I think I've just talked myself out of using "detailer's clay".

 

[TJ 450]

The best synthetic chamois I have encountered is the Oates Clean "Enka-Fill" type. They work extremely well when broken in... no complaints. My example has been going for three years and is used about every second weekend.
The Kanebo chamois should be available at Autobarn or such places.

Tim

 

[E200K]

From what I understand, clear coats accumulate embedded contaminants that no amount of washing or polishing will remove. The way to remove them is with a clay bar and a detailing lubricant. If you run the palm of your hand over your panels and you feel lots of prickly spots they try claying. You'll be amazed at the results.

 

[OzBenzHead]

From what I understand, clear coats accumulate embedded contaminants that no amount of washing or polishing will remove. [...]

Well, I guess that lets me off that hook, then, because none of my cars is clear-coated (and never will be, thank you - unless I find a metallic-painted car that for all other reasons I can't resist). Solid colours forever!

 

[s class]

A -silicate is a chemical compound of which one of the component elements is silicone. Chemical compounds are substances where the constituent elements have combined on an atomic level. The resulting compound has different physical and chemical properties to any of its constituents.

What you say about silicone and painting is true, but silicates can't be equated with silicone.

 

[OzBenzHead]

Thanks, Ryan. I figured I was entering unknown territory with my rudimentary (non-)understanding of mineralogy.

Does that mean, then, that by using one of those detailer's clays I would not be setting myself up for later repainting problems from silicone deposits?

I really need to know this, as a couple of cars are already at the short end of the painter's queue, and more are on the way. Anything I can do to improve "paintability", now or later - in the case of future damage - is a bonus.

 

[s class]

I am not a chemist - but I did have some basic training back at the beginning of my engineering degree. I would think that silicates will not present problems. That however does not rule out the possibility that the clays may also include silicones as lubricating agents. I guess if you are buying a clay (which I have not yet done), you want to find something that explicitly states it's silicone free. So in summary I'm cautiously suggesting it will not be a problem, but I think you want a more informed opinion. Perhaps you could ask your spraypainter for his views on the issue?

This thread has piqued my interest to try a clay.

I will also pose the question to my local standox agent's techie next time I'm there (which may be a week or 10 days away).

 

[BAR]

On Chamois: the old Kanebo's were great. Main difference between synthetic products is use of PVA vs PVC - very few use PVC and I've bought a few recently trying to find a good replacement for my ageing Kanebo.

I have also tried using Microfibre Chamois and prefer the ageing Kanebo.

I'a a Synthetic Chamois fan!

As for Clay vs Superfine Wet and Dry sandpaper. Well it's chalk and cheese. Wet and Dry would be better compared with cut and polish. Clay works to remove oxidised materials and fine particulates that have etched into the wax and paint.

I'd use clay a few times before attempting to Wet and Dry once.

As for polishing, get the Mothers Wax Attack Polisher and the 3 Phases of their fine Polishes. Use Microfibre polishing cloths and not towelling cloths to get a perfect finish with minimal effort. One hardly breaks a sweat polishing and finishing the big S class with Mothers.

I've used this on my 32 yr old 450 paintwork (Milan Brown never had a panel replaced), 5 yr old VW Golf (white, no top coat of clear) and 2 yr old Evo IX (Red, no top coat and not polished since new). In every case, most satisifed with the results.

If paitwork has light scratches, Mothers recommends their clay bar or scratch removeing plish, depending on the condition of the paintwork.

 

[E200K]

I'm planning to clay my 300SE this coming Friday. I'll post a full report when I've finished.

To be honest I'm not too sure of the exact "ingredients" of a clay bar, and I'd imagine that the people who manufacture them are going to keep them as secret as possible anyway. I believe they're made from man-made polymers.

 

[OzBenzHead]

[...] get the Mothers Wax Attack Polisher and the 3 Phases of their fine Polishes. [...]

I've been a Mother's user for years, but am now phasing out their Stage 2 product as it contains silicone. This is why I am researching alternatives.

 

[BAR]

Congratulations!

I hear on the grapevine that Pamela Anderson is also considering phasing out silicone!!!

Is it for the same reason?

 

[Styria]

Never used Panel beaters clay - always used 1500 or even 2000 grit and then power or hand cutting compound.

I have never met a synthetic chamois that I liked.

The best chamois is a well loved Genuine one that is many years old and has shrunk (?ground down) to about half original size.

I have two of them and although they start as rock hard I chuck them in the dogs water bucket before I start washing the car and they work brilliantly when I ring them out and start using them.

Bill

P.S. new ones improve dramatically after a run through the washing machine using detergent.

Hi WGB, I think you're a bit harsh on the Panel Beater's Clay. The reason I brought it up was in response to an assertion made by one of our customers that the application had caused the paint on his roof to deteriorate to the extent that it had to be re-sprayed.

It is a red 1991 (about) 300E twin cam, and we should all know the extent to which RED is subject to climatic harshness that our cars are subject to. I have it on good authority, by people that are experts, that the clay DOES NOT harm paint in any way. In addition, the use of clay, instead of or in addition to 1500 or 2000 grade wet and dry and buff, are really two entirely different operations dictated by totally unrelated conditions.

As far as the chamois are concerned, I do NOW know that that the Meguiar's unit has no patch on the Kanebo unit. The package states two features, namely :

1) "Leaves surface free of wipe-off marks and streaks - THAT IS NOT SO.

2) "Superior PVA construction doesn't grab or stick to paintwork" - THAT IS BECAUSE IT LEAVES TOO MUCH OF THE
WATER ON THE PAINTWORK".

The REAL chamois I have yet to buy and try. Regards Styria

 

[BenzBoy]

I am aware of OBH's concerns about silicone. I have also been told how wonderfully easy to use is the Presta rabge of products. However, if you read on, you will discover that OBH might not endorse the product. For example, read about the finishing spray.
http://www.malcopro.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=1162&Itemid=619
Regards,
Benz-Boy

 

[John S]

I can remember when silicone was first used in car wax, it allowed the "plates" to slide over each other and give a smooth, even, thin coating easy to buff. Within 2 years I was reading technical / research papers saying how excess silicone may improve the look of the polished car - now you can buy "wet look" car polish, a number of which use silicone to achieve the desired finish.

It seems one has to be very careful with polished and read the fine print if silicone is to be avoided.