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Tony66_au

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Id use the injection if anything, Im sorry to be so down on LPG gents but when you do the maths and if you are looking for economy its really not worth it.

If you want a bit more power however it can be rewarding.
 

motec 6.9

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Hi Tonny sorry to disapoint but i used to work for mobil and lpg mix has changed to mostly butane not propane and now has a ron of about 93 octane . I am not a fan of lpg but cost advantage still works in it favour . I owned a taxi in Canberra for 5 years . Hi Mark we will see when i move to Coffs Harbour about extractors :D
 

Tony66_au

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Mostly Butane eh? and at 93 its not worth it even for performance... It used to be around 120 octane from memory.

I leased cabs for a few years and then ran a Fairlane on LPG as an exec taxi and later VHA car and because of the miles (370 k per day on average) and the far lower LPG price it was good value, at 70 ish cents per litre these days the Country cabs around here haven't run on LPG since they last upgraded.

So any clues on why the higher Butane mix?
 

motec 6.9

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Hi Tony it was based on profit as butane is lower down the refining process than propane. The higher octane lpg ron was 110 when it was mostly propane it has not been on sale for about 10 years . The main reason for lower performance on lpg is it has a lower calorific value as in it does not have the same bang per gram as pertrol so more is used for same energy output. You used to get around that by lifting compression to use higher octane rating but no longer possible ask engine builders about unhappy streetmachine owners wanting money back on dead high comp lpg motors . :D
 
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Oversize

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I'm led to believe Supagas have higher quality fuels made with a high(er) concentration of propane and they even sell it cheaper than other outlets, as there's no middle-man. I could be wrong, but the price is definitely cheaper....
 
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So if I convert her back to petrol, what kind of mileage can I expect? How many km per tank? Are they 80, or 100L?

As far as LPG mixers go I was looking at twin Impco 200M laid flat, as the 425 is too small (low airflow) and I probably wouldn't be able to get it under the bonnet anyway. Twin 425s definitely wouldn't fit! I'd seen 2 x 200Ms on a hot-rod and thought it'd work, but I am concerned about tuneability... I was also thinking of a generic twin throttle body and custom plumping to make it all work. Ideas or comments??

BTW LPG injection would be upwards of $4K if I could find a system that was adaptable and an installer willing to give it a try. Gas Research looks the part, but I've heard reports of numerous tuning problems....
 
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Tony66_au

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Actually they now seem to have delisted the propane auto gas outlets but I did find mention of it available at their Sommerton store on The Hume so thats worth a look.
 
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Sure is......
 

motec 6.9

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Hi Mark i believe its a 96 litre tank you should get between 400 to 500 km to a tank depending on your driving . I was getting a bit better on my car when last on the road becauce of my efi i was down to about 14.5 to 15 litres per 100km . as for impco mixer no 425 will not fit car needs a 500 mixer but you will need to cut hole in your bonnet to fit them. There was a 6.9 on ebay in tas earlier this year fitted with gas research duel throttle bodies . Yes i believe they are harder to tune but they are tunable impco is just a bbq ring . There has been a few quick lpg cars in Melbourne over the years at the drags with gas research find out who has done the work and go there . Lpg injection is better but how much money do you want to throw at the car . I have spent over 10000 puting efi on my car . looking forward to moving east in new year and once settled getting around to doing cosmetics on my car and interior so car will most likely make trip on trailer to Sydney . Then i am sure there will be a few interested people to have some copies of my extractors when paint work is being done :D
 

Tony66_au

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Hi Tony it was based on profit as butane is lower down the refining process than propane. The higher octane lpg ron was 110 when it was mostly propane it has not been on sale for about 10 years . The main reason for lower performance on lpg is it has a lower calorific value as in it does not have the same bang per gram as pertrol so more is used for same energy output. You used to get around that by lifting compression to use higher octane rating but no longer possible ask engine builders about unhappy streetmachine owners wanting money back on dead high comp lpg motors . :D


Thanks for that explanation, Its nice to hear from someone with factual reasons that support my decision to walk away from LPG.

I have used it for years on a variety of cars and trucks (And even a ride on mower) and Ive always kept good fuel consumption and mileage records on all my cars regardless of what it ran on and LPG started to run close to fuel prices 4 or 5 years ago when I still had access to the suburban discounting cycles.

I noticed the LPG quality fluctuations when I was running an old 1973 International Acco with a 345 Cu Inch petrol engine, the old girl had 2 x 220 lt (180 lt usable) and id fill her 2 or 3 times a week depending on where she was filled.

I started filling at a Taxi depot Id worked at and suddenly it was mileage perfect for fill's at 3 tank fill's per week which was half what I was using.

Even at 29.9 cents per lt it was nearly $150.00 cheaper using the taxi gas on an old lpg system.

I don't have reliable consumption figures for an M117 4.5lt on LPG but my trip from Horsham in light traffic in my Brown 450SE called for 4 stops to fill the tank with LPG and I know id have done the same trip in less than a tank of Pulp.

I have seen and used Gas Research systems on a Val I used as a daily for 18 months and their throttle body system was far better than the dual fuel system that came off the car even though id spent money prior to the new system with Scorcher getting my Dizzy remapped and the car dyno tuned, ran 8mm leads, NGK Gas plugs as recommended and a whopping Echlin coil with after market electronic (CDI) ignition.

2 years ago I removed the system and sold the lot (Falcon scuba LPG tanks retained) and dropped a 4 bbl carb with Bosch pump and reg on the engine and went back to running a breaker point distributor on the 4 litre 6 cylinder engine with better economy results even running BP Ultimate ULP @ $1.55 per litre compared to 0.69 cents per litre for LPG also sourced at BP.

More grist for the mill I guess.
 
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I did the sums last night. At the rate of $1.46 PULP and 100L tank obviously it'd cost $146 to fill with petrol. LPG is currently $0.53 and with a 60L tank it'd cost a whole $31.80. With an est range of approx 500km petrol and 300km LPG, this equates to $0.29 for petrol per km vs $0.11 for LPG per km (rounded to the nearest cent). Thus LPG savings are approx $0.19 per km. If I have to spend $1K on fixing the LPG system it'd pay itself back in 5376km. If I use her as I'm planning, that won't be a long period of time and there won't be that empty wallet feeling every time I fill up. Perhaps a slight loss of power, but 6.9s are hardly lacking there anyway. Plus if I'm smart in the way it's set up, I may not lose any power at all (maybe even a slight gain).... :p
 
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Tony66_au

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Mark I hate to bring this up but on average and without a proper standard for the propane/Butane quantities in AutoGas you may well find that you end up using double the amount of LPG per kilometre you would normally use on petrol.

The 6.9 is a heavy car too which means a lot more right foot to get her rolling, I went through this with American Limo's on LPG years ago mate and the results are frightening.

One thing in your favour though is the whole 53 cents per litre.

There are no standard figures to rely on when it comes to LPG consumption and this whole suck it and see thing is what caught me out the last time I paid to have LPG fitted and the cost bit me on the bum even though I was doing high miles.

I hope it works for you and the tighter tolerances in the Mercedes engine and the system you choose makes a liar of me but when its ticking take some hard data on usage and consumption.
 
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Yeah I certainly will. If it doesn't work out, I can always convert it back and at least I'll know not to bother again. If I lose $1K finding that out, then it's not the end of the world! Many have gambled much more with far less return. But with the price of oil hitting $100 a barrel recently (with not even a whimper from the media), there's only one way for petrol to go.... :eek:
 

WiSeGuYY

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Hey MARK , i was not following the thread after you post the pics but now i saw the video and ohhhh boy it sounds great , you better work hard to get it back on the road.

REGARDS

TAREK
 

Tony66_au

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Yeah I certainly will. If it doesn't work out, I can always convert it back and at least I'll know not to bother again. If I lose $1K finding that out, then it's not the end of the world! Many have gambled much more with far less return. But with the price of oil hitting $100 a barrel recently (with not even a whimper from the media), there's only one way for petrol to go.... :eek:

Yep, UP again.

Im currently paying $1.349 for ulp and $1.459 for premium and I use a 10 to 15 cent woolies discount voucher to get that price (Caltex fuel) but thats because I fill Guido a few times a week and the TE atleast once a week running out at roughly $200 per week in fuel.

Guido does most of the miles and its nice to drive the TE after getting out of Guido but I get 10 km per lt from Herr Flick and up to 17 k per lt from Guido even with the A/C running flat out.

The D jet 450 gets roughly 7 km per lt based on the 400 km its done since Ive owned it and I have to admit I put standard ULP in it to get those figures but even at 7 km per lt I can live with 600 odd km per tankfull.
 

Styria

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Hi Tony, those 450 D-Jet consumption figures are quite excellent. With Gleaming Beauty, in the past, I could comfortably get 600 kms. on a trip, but for some unknown reason, at this stage, consumption has increased considerably, but I have not yet checked for reasons why.Regards Styria
 

Tony66_au

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Hi Tony, those 450 D-Jet consumption figures are quite excellent. With Gleaming Beauty, in the past, I could comfortably get 600 kms. on a trip, but for some unknown reason, at this stage, consumption has increased considerably, but I have not yet checked for reasons why.Regards Styria


Thanks Styria,

I've just gone back to the logbook to check the figures and although I usually work on filling the tank and recording figures from fill to fill (Kilometres travelled divided by Litres to fill the tank) this time the tank was empty because id done a fiter change and then refilled with fresh fuel I carted home in 20 lt jerry cans so the figures may be a km per litre or 2 off.

I also keep AvGas here in 20 litre drums from BP (In case a mate drops in) and I did have 20 or so litres in remnants in cans that had been opened that was added because I used 4 of the AvGas cans to get the fuel (Insert innocently whistling smiley icon here) if that makes any difference, and I also added 1 lt of Penrite synthetic 2 stroke oil.

Ive also replaced the plug leads, plugs with NGK's, Dizzy cap rotor etc and spent the time Ive had the car sorting vacuum lines, oil n filters and a new air filter (Although im looking for a suitable cotton blue race filter to suit) so my tinkering may have had something to do with the figures.

So to be fair since I bought the car from AAB Ive spent probably 120 hours on and off sorting and discovering Vacuum and Ignition niggles.

Mechanical items are to follow and then interior, a radio refit and a few trim pieces.

So to be totally fair id round the consumption figures down to between 5 and 6 km per litre until I have 3 or 4 tankfull's under my belt in consumption figures and No AvGas in the tank although I will continue to add 0.5 lt per fill (over 70 lt) of 2 stroke until im happy the car is re run in.

Tony
 

Tony66_au

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Oh and I neglected to mention I rarely ran the A/C and all my driving is country mileage plus I was taking it easy as the car has been languishing in my Garage for quite a while.
 

260ebenz

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Yep, UP again.

Im currently paying $1.349 for ulp and $1.459 for premium and I use a 10 to 15 cent woolies discount voucher to get that price (Caltex fuel) but thats because I fill Guido a few times a week and the TE atleast once a week running out at roughly $200 per week in fuel.

Guido does most of the miles and its nice to drive the TE after getting out of Guido but I get 10 km per lt from Herr Flick and up to 17 k per lt from Guido even with the A/C running flat out.

The D jet 450 gets roughly 7 km per lt based on the 400 km its done since Ive owned it and I have to admit I put standard ULP in it to get those figures but even at 7 km per lt I can live with 600 odd km per tankfull.

Hi Tony,

Unleaded 95 BP is $1.55 and BP Ultimate 98 is $1.65 where I live.
 

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