W109 6.3 vs Daimler Double Six S1

[c107]

https://drive-my.com/en/test-drive/...ix-vs-1969-mercedes-benz-300sel-6-3-w109.html

Interesting article.

 

[sean sherry]

Having worked on many V12 Jaguars ie the transmissions, I always found them gutless. Impossible to set the Auto Box as the ignition was about 6% retarded to meet emissions. This resulted in late upshifts . a common complaint. We advanced the Timing and said nothing .. no comebacks complaints. The V 12 BMWs were a much better car to drive, a lovely Engine set up correctly.

 

[BenzBoy]

What damned fine cars; both of them. I would have either or both as they do represent truly fine human engineering.
Regards,
Brian

 

[c107]

I would love a series 1 XJ12 or Daimler Double six at some point.
I've not driven one, but from what i gather the short stroke 12 is not a torque monster and makes its power at high revs.

Probably the comparison with the 6,9 would be more appropriate as they were contemporaries.

 

[BenzBoy]

I would love a series 1 XJ12 or Daimler Double six at some point.
I've not driven one, but from what i gather the short stroke 12 is not a torque monster and makes its power at high revs.

Probably the comparison with the 6,9 would be more appropriate as they were contemporaries.

The Jaguar/Daimler V12 is extraordinarily smooth and revs very easily. It does not have the low-down torque of the 6.9 but it does sing through the revs; the two different motors reflect totally different cultures and each is as equally desirable. You owe it to yourself to drive the V12 as it is a very beautiful piece of engineering.
Regards,
Brian

 

[sean sherry]

Interesting about the Torque at higher Revs, as this Engine did not have not a happy marriage with the USA Turbine 400 Auto Box, which was designed for low Revving high Torque Engines. On the Motorways in the UK the intermedic Clutches were failing due to the high revving Jaguar Engine.
The T 400 auto was happier in the lower revving Rolls Royce V8s, except that R.R. fitted a "soft" vacuum Modulator to lower the Line Pressure to give soft sloppy upshifts. Easily sorted with a Modulator from a Pontiac. The Shadow 11 then drove much better with clean positive upshifts.

 

[c107]

Interesting about the Torque at higher Revs, as this Engine did not have not a happy marriage with the USA Turbine 400 Auto Box, which was designed for low Revving high Torque Engines. On the Motorways in the UK the intermedic Clutches were failing due to the high revving Jaguar Engine.
The T 400 auto was happier in the lower revving Rolls Royce V8s, except that R.R. fitted a "soft" vacuum Modulator to lower the Line Pressure to give soft sloppy upshifts. Easily sorted with a Modulator from a Pontiac. The Shadow 11 then drove much better with clean positive upshifts.

How did it fare with the earlier gearboxes like the Borg Warner 12? Same problem?

 

[sean sherry]

The earlier BW 8s and 12s were very robust Transmissions. I recall the first Jaguar V12 Coupe we did and being impress as to how well it drove. We modified it somewhat by fitting a softer front band from a Rambler , the only way to cure the skidding 1-2 upshift on light to medium throttle. The original Band was way too hard with a lower coefficient of friction, after a few miles on the clock. The other saloon Jags were the same. In the USA cars this was not a problem, probably because they shifter earlier ( higher low down Rev. Torque ) and before the Governor pressure reduced the Line pressure as the road speed increased.

For the technical.... T.V. pressure and Governor Pressure go head to head to to decide the upshifts and the Line Pressure. If the Governor pressure did not reduce the Line pressure as road speed increases and as the load on the Engine
decreased the upshifts would be very harsh.

 

[c107]

Good to know, thanks Sean.
I prefer these early models.

 

[Patrick_R]

Always very good reference material on transmissions from Sean.
Thank you.

 

[c107]

Always very good reference material on transmissions from Sean.
Thank you.

Indeed

Sean’s deep transmission expertise adds a lot to these threads.

 

[c107]

This video covers the series 2, not the series 1, but it also compares it to the 6.9.

Well worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMaOtaaI4Yk

 

[BenzBoy]

Certainly worth watching - and great to listen to such a calm and discreet voice.
Regards,
Brian