Transforming a 380SL

[BAR]

It's getting confusing, but if I can follow the flow. You have a car which originally had a 250 Iron block motor and 4 speed manual. Now you want to drop in the 560 alloy block motor and find a suitable gearbox.

Two choices. Uprate the clutchplate on the 350 gearbox and bolt it on, or get a 5 speed auto box that would have been with the 560.

Don't mess around with the rear end or else you'll need to start investigating final drive ratios and change the speedo.

From my recollection, the gearboxes had same moutnings for the 350 / 450 iron block and the subsequent 380 / 420 / 560 alloy blocks.

Differences between the 350 and 450 were all related to lengenthing the stroke of the motor to get extra displacement plus gains in power and torque [things like more fuel flow to accomodate extra need for vital juices].

When changing to the alloy motors you have to consider how to transplant the engine management systems and fuel systems [changing wiring looms etc].

 

[ajsimpson]

It's getting confusing, but if I can follow the flow. You have a car which originally had a 250 Iron block motor and 4 speed manual. Now you want to drop in the 560 alloy block motor and find a suitable gearbox.

No. Originally, I have a 1985 380SL with an auto 4 spd transmission. I bought a 1976 350SLC 4 spd manual transmission car, primaraily for the parts. The plan is to convert the 380 to a 5 spd manual using the parts from the 350. (are you with me, so far?)

I also wanted to somehow upgrade the 380 engine. Originally I was under the impression that the 350 engine would give me more power than the 380's engine but, members of this forum suggested that a 500 or, 560 engine would be a much better choice. So, now I have the 560 engine that will be transplanted into the 380.

Two choices. Uprate the clutchplate on the 350 gearbox and bolt it on, or get a 5 speed auto box that would have been with the 560.

Alright, just so I'm clear. Are you saying that the 350's bellhousing will bolt right up to the 560? And, if so. Is that 350 tranny strong enough for the 560?

Wait a minute. I don't want to do that because, the 350 tranny is only a 4 spd. I need to put a 5 spd in back of that 560 (since I'm going through all the trouble). Any suggestions on the type of trans?

Don't mess around with the rear end or else you'll need to start investigating final drive ratios and change the speedo.

I won't be changing the rear end gears because, as far as I know, the rear end gear ration on the 380 is smaller that that of the 350 & 450 (meaning, the 380 would be slower off the line but, gives greater top end performance).

From my recollection, the gearboxes had same moutnings for the 350 / 450 iron block and the subsequent 380 / 420 / 560 alloy blocks.

This I'm not so, sure about. I've seen some diagrams of both the 350 & 450 transmission bellhousing configurations and, I believe they will not bolt onto the back of the 380. But, your saying that they might bolt onto the 560?

When changing to the alloy motors you have to consider how to transplant the engine management systems and fuel systems [changing wiring looms etc].

Your right. This is where is going to get messy. Since I don't have a donor car and I can't use what's in the 380, I may have to consider an independent engine management system. Maybe Megasquirt or some such, is the way to go.

Looking for comments

Thanks, A.J.

 

[BAR]

You might find it helpful to read this page: it's about automatics, but you will find the similarities for engines and that's useful.

As for cars with a 5 speed manual, I can't say that I can recall any MB's with large V8's ever coming out with manuals, due to the power and torque.

You may have to console yourself with a very good auto transmission, or speak to an engineer about adapting a Jaguar transmission!

If you want power and are not too concerned about a genuine car [changing to a 560 motor isn't genuine, but it is a Mercedes unit], you will find bucket loads of power in a Chevy or Ford V8 and all the right bits and pieces easily in your part of the world. Not at least to say that it will be thousands of dollars cheaper.

Read about where Mercules has transplanted a Ford 6 Cyl into his W116. Much more power than any 350 or 450 engine.

 

[ajsimpson]

You might find it helpful to read this page: it's about automatics, but you will find the similarities for engines and that's useful.

What page are you referring to?

As for cars with a 5 speed manual, I can't say that I can recall any MB's with large V8's ever coming out with manuals, due to the power and torque.

AFAIK, MB did not make a 5 spd manual for any of these cars. I want to make my car a 5 spd. I'm not barking up the MB tree for that. I was just wondering if anyone had a suggestion of what make tranny to use.

You may have to console yourself with a very good auto transmission, or speak to an engineer about adapting a Jaguar transmission!

Well, an automatic tranny is simply out of the question. I'm sure that a proper 5 spd tranny bolted to the back of that 560 will transform the performance of it measurably. Not to mention, the added driving pleasure. I say that from a Jaguar XJS perspective. Fitting a 5 spd tranny to a 5.3 or, 6.0 Jaguar will transform that car from cat to beast.

If you want power and are not too concerned about a genuine car [changing to a 560 motor isn't genuine, but it is a Mercedes unit], you will find bucket loads of power in a Chevy or Ford V8 and all the right bits and pieces easily in your part of the world. Not at least to say that it will be thousands of dollars cheaper.

Yes, you are right but, Chevy isn't an option for me. If at all possible I'd like to keep the original blood lines & soul of the car.

Read about where Mercules has transplanted a Ford 6 Cyl into his W116. Much more power than any 350 or 450 engine.

I'll have to check that out.

Thanks, A.J.

 

[BAR]

I lost the page... and forgot to copy the details into my posting. Basically it had the power and torque characteristics for each engine.

I have looked further into gearbox conversions. If we had a Jaguar, then there is an off the shelf gearbox adapter to screw in the Toyota Supra 5 Speed.

You may find that if you spend long enough, that there is a company in Germany offering a gearbox adapter kit.

Here in AUstralia, well i'd give Dellow Automotive a try...
http://www.dellowauto.com.au/main.html

 

[ajsimpson]

I lost the page... and forgot to copy the details into my posting. Basically it had the power and torque characteristics for each engine.

Yes that info would've been nice to have. Unless your referring to this page? <http://www.northernresource.com/mercedes/107.htm#Heat_System_/AC>

I have looked further into gearbox conversions. If we had a Jaguar, then there is an off the shelf gearbox adapter to screw in the Toyota Supra 5 Speed.

I am familiar with the Jag conversion kits for the Toyota W58 & R154 5 speed trans. I happen to have three R154's sitting on my shelf. It was intended to go into an XJS. I may end up going with a Richmond 5 speed instead.

You may find that if you spend long enough, that there is a company in Germany offering a gearbox adapter kit.

This, is real interesting information. I'd not heard of any such company before. I can't find the page either but, I know that there is a company in Aussie that makes and, sells conversion kits for the bigger Mercedes cars. I had emailed them once and, got a response back saying that a 107 model wasn't a model that they could help me with.

Here in AUstralia, well i'd give Dellow Automotive a try...
http://www.dellowauto.com.au/main.html

Yes, I am familiar with Dellows for the Jag.

Thanks, A.J.

 

[BAR]

Found this link for transmissions: it may be a starting point for you:

http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html

Also on this page is a reference to a 1966 Mercedes-Benz 300SE cabriolet in which AMG has installed the 6.3-liter engine and a five-speed ZF gearbox. You may be able to trace down a conversion kit.

http://www.m-100.cc/6point3/magazines/carcollector_sep1982/index.html

 

[BAR]

I had a closer inspection yesterday of the belhousing / adapter kit of a SUpra box mounted on an XJ Jaguar motor.

I have it on good authority that these boxes are very reliable and handle well over 350 horsepower [much more than the 450 or 6.9 motors].

Now if only one could ask Dellow Automotive what it may cost to make up an adapter plate.

 

[ajsimpson]

Found this link for transmissions: it may be a starting point for you:[/url]

http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html

Thanks for the info, I don't think that any of it applies to these cars though. If so, then I must be missing something.

Also on this page is a reference to a 1966 Mercedes-Benz 300SE cabriolet in which AMG has installed the 6.3-liter engine and a five-speed ZF gearbox. You may be able to trace down a conversion kit.[/url]

http://www.m-100.cc/6point3/magazines/carcollector_sep1982/index.html[/QUOTE]

Unless I've looked in all the wrong places, I don't believe that anyone makes a kit for a 5 speed conversion on these cars.

Thanks, A.J.

 

[ajsimpson]

I had a closer inspection yesterday of the belhousing / adapter kit of a SUpra box mounted on an XJ Jaguar motor.

I have it on good authority that these boxes are very reliable and handle well over 350 horsepower [much more than the 450 or 6.9 motors].

Now if only one could ask Dellow Automotive what it may cost to make up an adapter plate.

Yes, I'm with you there on the strength of the Supra box. Undoubtedly, your referring to the R154 5 speed box. This box came out of the Turbo cars. They made a 6 speed box as well. Actually, Getrag made the box for them and, it is a R161 which will handle much more power than the R154.

As for Dellow making a bellhousing. I don't know that it'd be worth their time. I could be wrong but, at least in the circle that I've traveled, I've yet to hear much, if any talk about 5 speed conversions. Seems that most people want automatics.

I think my next logical move would be to track down a broken box from a 560 engine (for cheap). Cut off the bellhousing & tig weld it somehow, with the proper dimensions to a Toyota R154. I can't think of any other solution to the matter.

Thanks, A.J.

 

[BAR]

Ther is also another way to skin this cat.

The 380SL only produced 145 Kw: not much.

It would be more expediaent and cheaper if you tossed out the MBV engine / auto box and went to a good engineering company and asked the to fit in a Ford Windsor motor and maunal gearbox. You could easily find a newer unit that has fuel injection and T5 gearbox. You'll also get more power and better fuel economy.

All that would be needed are engine mounts / gearbox mount and tailshaft.

This would cost less than having bellhousing / adapter plate cast up to suit the 380 engine.

If you're in Victoria, the Rod Shop can do the work. http://www.rodshop.com.au/index.html

 

[ajsimpson]

Ther is also another way to skin this cat.

The 380SL only produced 145 Kw: not much.[/url]

Yes I know and, the lack of power is what started this whole thing. The final straw was about a year ago when I up against a VW that blew me away several times on a highway with his girlfriend sitting beside him smiling at me the whole time.

It would be more expediaent and cheaper if you tossed out the MBV engine / auto box and went to a good engineering company and asked the to fit in a Ford Windsor motor and maunal gearbox. You could easily find a newer unit that has fuel injection and T5 gearbox. You'll also get more power and better fuel economy.[/url]

Well, as much as I apprectiate the thought, that idea won't work for me on several levels. Of which I'll list two.
1. I'd never dream of putting an American muscle car engine into anything that I own.
2. I'll have nothing to do with having someone else work on any of my cars. Not because, a company doesn't know what their doing but, because you can't buy love.

Let's face it. To begin with, a project like this in not for the faint of heart. I think that the approach has to be one of two ways. Either you farm out the work (which gets into some serious cash outlay)or, you gather parts, figure out what's needed (with the help of a forum like this one) and, fabricate the the rest.

I'm just glad that I have a parts car to work out the kinks with because, it's not like one could consider my 380 a beater by any standard. In fact the car is in mint condition with only 40,000 miles on it. So, whatever is done to the car has to be made to look like it was built right in from the factory.

As far a fuel economy goes. I'm pretty confident that mating a manual gear box to just about any engine with the right gearing is going to produce better fuel economy. Look what a 5 speed does for a Jag with a 2.88 diff. Your looking at 30 mpg.

All that would be needed are engine mounts / gearbox mount and tailshaft.[/url]

I have the 560 engine sitting on the shelf that I know will fit.

This would cost less than having bellhousing / adapter plate cast up to suit the 380 engine.[/url]

As was stated earlier. The 380 engine is coming out of the car and, there is just no question about that.

I have 1976 SLC parts car that I fully intend to experiment on with one of my V12 Jag engines(I have two 6.0's & one 5.3) because, my very first desire was to try and fit a V12 into the car. If it proves to be to difficult then the 560 engine will go in instead.

If you're in Victoria, the Rod Shop can do the work. http://www.rodshop.com.au/index.html

I'll take a look.

Thanks, A.J.

 

[BAR]

You may be in luck: I got a reply from Dellow's which reads:

"Years ago I made a bellhousing pattern & cast a V8 benz to toyota supra 5 speed still have a pattern but can't remember the model do a Template of the back of the block & send it to me. Regards, Dellow Auto'.

Their email address is: sales@dellowauto.com.au

So if you can get a template, email to them and see if it's the right engine and let the whole world know if it is. There'll be plenty of keen buyers I'm sure, now that petrol costs more than beer.

 

[ajsimpson]

You may be in luck: I got a reply from Dellow's which reads:

"Years ago I made a bellhousing pattern & cast a V8 benz to toyota supra 5 speed still have a pattern but can't remember the model do a Template of the back of the block & send it to me. Regards, Dellow Auto'.

Wow, that's encouraging news. I'll work on making a template soon.

Their email address is: sales@dellowauto.com.au

I will get in touch with them.

So if you can get a template, email to them and see if it's the right engine and let the whole world know if it is. There'll be plenty of keen buyers I'm sure, now that petrol costs more than beer.

Yep, there may very well be others that could benefit from this info as well. I gotta believe that this type of conversion would transform the car into something pretty awesome and, much more fun to drive.

As a side note: I got lucky and, picked up a 4 speed manual trans from an older Jag (I think XK model) the bell will bolt up directly to a 5.3

Thanks for the info,
A.J.

 

[Hey_Allen]

I just stumbled across this thread when I did a search for Mercedes and Megasquirt.

Curiosity paid off, as I'd heard of Dellow's, but being on the other side of the world, I didn't think to even contact them to inquire about a bell housing.

If anything comes of that, or if you need someone to make the template, you'll mention it, I hope?

Best of luck with your conversion, whichever direction you end up taking it!

 

[ajsimpson]

I just stumbled across this thread when I did a search for Mercedes and Megasquirt.

Hello Allen, Are you saying that you want to do a Megasquirt conversion?

Curiosity paid off, as I'd heard of Dellow's, but being on the other side of the world, I didn't think to even contact them to inquire about a bell housing.

Are you somewhere in the states?

If anything comes of that, or if you need someone to make the template, you'll mention it, I hope?

I'm just a little confused as to what it is that your trying to do. Are you contemplating a manual conversion as well?

 

[Hey_Allen]

Yes, I'm in progress of converting a 500SEC to megasquirt at the moment.

I'm located in Washington, USA, and have been considering a manual conversion on the car for a while, but am choking on the only other alternative to a custom bell housing.
That option was to fit one of the new MB manu-matic (electronically controlled automatic) that could then be configured with a stand alone transmission control module to use it as a manual box.
Total cost of that option was looking to be between $3500 and $8000 USD, which I though was well into the realm of unreasonable pricing.

As I sit currently, I have a fairly well behaved transmission, behind a somewhat behaved CIS managed m117 engine.
I've been reading up on a few other peoples projects doing the conversion to reference for build info, as well as getting a rough map to start the engine on.

 

[ajsimpson]

Yes, I'm in progress of converting a 500SEC to megasquirt at the moment.

I'd be interested to follow your progress on the Megasquirt install. I've gathered most of the things that I need to do the conversion. I've also been looking around for an engine dyno. I've not decided on my engine of choice yet, although I've got both engines sitting in the garage on engine stands.

I'm located in Washington, USA, and have been considering a manual conversion on the car for a while, but am choking on the only other alternative to a custom bell housing.

I'm also in the USA, Southern Indiana. Do you have the manual pedal box setup already? I was also thinking about converting an SEC to a 5 spd for another project.

That option was to fit one of the new MB manu-matic (electronically controlled automatic) that could then be configured with a stand alone transmission control module to use it as a manual box.
Total cost of that option was looking to be between $3500 and $8000 USD, which I though was well into the realm of unreasonable pricing.

I'd never consider paying that type of money for a conversion. Are you doing the work your self?

 

[Hey_Allen]

Well, I'm walking in the steps of a few others who were brave on this before I started.
Take a look in the MSRuns.com success stories section HERE and look for anything interesting.
With a quick glance through them, I see 5 different m116 or m117 engine conversions, as well as a number of other MB projects.

If you do end up converting the 560 engine to MS, and you need a source for the fuel rails, let me know and I'll point you to the gentleman who machined the rails for me. He did good work at a reasonable price.

I haven't collected a pedal box for the project yet, as I am not too worried about actually pulling this off any time in the near future. I'd LIKE to, but I doubt I will!

As to the prices, that is a large portion of the reason I'd been avoiding the project and focusing on more reliability and tuning for the engine. I can't justify that sort of spending on this car. As much as I like it and enjoy wrenching on it, I doubt I have more than $6000 in it, including buying it in the first place!

 

[SEL_69L]

I am just wondering if a 6.9 engine would be the right way to go, due to it's larger size, perhaps making installation very difficult or impossible, and that large chunk of cast iron over the front wheels! Although I am a 6.9 owner myself, I would think the steering would me much heavier and would have a far more sluggish steering response. Put another way the "turn in" could be dissapointing. An alloy engined 500 or 560 would be a much more pleasant drive in the steering department, and be much more akin to the steering characteristics that a roadster or coupe should have.