What is Councours Condition?

[Tony66_au]

I have been reading with some interest and occasionally contributing tips and tricks to make a car look great and although I don't "Do" Car shows as I really cant be bothered being careful to that degree with cars I drive.

As im also a notorious tightarse when it comes to buying cars I prefer to look at other peoples gleaming cars.

That said I have in the past kept my cars in fine condition especially Any Limousine's I have owned so I know my way around washing a car and keeping it tidy enough to impress but I will also freely admit that I know sweet FA about actual Concours cars and what constitutes this prescribed condition.

So Gentlemen,

Educate me!

 

[Tony66_au]

What I think I know

A concours car must be original as intended by the manufacturer.

Un-restored original condition is best.

Accessories to be Original Equipment Manufacture.

 

[Helmet]

What I think I know

A concours car must be original as intended by the manufacturer.

Un-restored original condition is best.

Accessories to be Original Equipment Manufacture.

+ not a speck of dirt anywhere

 

[BenzBoy]

This may help.
Scroll down to the two PDFs at the bottom of the page for more details.
http://rroc.org.au/wiki/index.php?title=Concours:Judging
Regards,
Brian

 

[Tony66_au]

Thanks Brian, id say the Rolls Royce owners club would be a solid reference source.

 

[Tony66_au]

Interesting

Points Score
The points score is out of a maximum
of 200, subject to adjustments for age
allowance. Points are awarded in the
following categories:
Engine:
Mechanical condition, validity and
appearance, 40
Cleanliness, 10
Chassis:
Mechanical condition, validity and
appearance, 40
Cleanliness, 10
Coachwork Interior:
Condition and appearance, 40
Toolkit, 10
Coachwork Exterior:
Condition and appearance, 40
Elegance, 10
Maximum possible score,
200


Surely it isnt that simple though.

Do we have Concours entrants of winners amongst us?

 

[BenzBoy]

Yes we do. My Spirit is a consistent winner but since becoming president I don't believe it is ethical to enter so when my term is over I'll get back to it.
Basically, to win your car must be as close as possible to how it looked on the showroom floor. Now that is not as easy as many people think.
You also need to scroll down through all of the Judging Manual to see the judging sheets and the penalty points. The RROCA holds regular training sessions for judges to ensure they know what to look for.
Regards,
Brian

 

[Styria]

Well Tony, how long is a string or, better still, how many cans of worms would you like to open up ? What constitutes concours condition can be of individual interpretation. Some will contend that a nicely kept and maintained car, even with a well worn interior classified as having the right 'patina' is the car that should carry the bacon.

There are others that will restore their cars to the 'nth degree, with money spent being no object, and they will of course tell you that theirs is the ideal concours car. From a personal point of view, I follow a certain philosophy and it is as follows:

A car that looks as close in condition as to when it left the factory when new, should be the winner. I have previously referred to "patina" which usually relates to the condition of leather. In my opinion, seats re-upholstered in new leather has simply got to be better than leather that is nicely worn. Now, that's just my opinion, the next poster is just as likely to have a totally contrary opinion.

Maybe we could, or should, judge our own cars from a concours point of view and see what findings we come up with. I am prepared to put Gleaming Beauty through the hoops. Anyone else ? Mark, Ofonteney,Michel, Hoddo, SEL69L, Benz Boy and others ? Regards Styria

 

[Tony66_au]

Yes we do. My Spirit is a consistent winner but since becoming president I don't believe it is ethical to enter so when my term is over I'll get back to it.
Basically, to win your car must be as close as possible to how it looked on the showroom floor. Now that is not as easy as many people think.
You also need to scroll down through all of the Judging Manual to see the judging sheets and the penalty points. The RROCA holds regular training sessions for judges to ensure they know what to look for.
Regards,
Brian

WOW!

I was just scrolling through the Judges manual then and the sheets are fantastic.

Im amazed at the fairness in criteria too.

An eye opening read.

 

[Tony66_au]

Well Tony, how long is a string or, better still, how many cans of worms would you like to open up ? What constitutes concours condition can be of individual interpretation. Some will contend that a nicely kept and maintained car, even with a well worn interior classified as having the right 'patina' is the car that should carry the bacon.

There are others that will restore their cars to the 'nth degree, with money spent being no object, and they will of course tell you that theirs is the ideal concours car. From a personal point of view, I follow a certain philosophy and it is as follows:

A car that looks as close in condition as to when it left the factory when new, should be the winner. I have previously referred to "patina" which usually relates to the condition of leather. In my opinion, seats re-upholstered in new leather has simply got to be better than leather that is nicely worn. Now, that's just my opinion, the next poster is just as likely to have a totally contrary opinion.

Maybe we could, or should, judge our own cars from a concours point of view and see what findings we come up with. I am prepared to put Gleaming Beauty through the hoops. Anyone else ? Mark, Ofonteney,Michel, Hoddo, SEL69L, Benz Boy and others ? Regards Styria

Styria it isnt so much "Cans of worms" im looking for, its more a better understanding of the process and as there has been much in the way of discussion the topic has my attention and interest.

It has now been established that your criteria is correct in as much as A car that looks as close in condition as to when it left the factory when new and id be inclined to agree.

Patina and wear for age should be considered it seems "In context" but worn and creased leather with colour missing is obviously a personal choice and would be difficult to judge as it is also a personal choice or taste.

 

[Tony66_au]

Now as to the suggestion of a concours critique of my car (The 450SEL) well thats a simple answer.

It would fail miserably!

I have over the last 5 weeks been inventorying the cosmetic condition of Lili and it fails on these points so far discovered.

Body, Paint and Chassis.

Minor cosmetic rust,
Chassis repairs not metal finished and repainted correctly,
Paint work redone in the past not to a good standard with evidence of Overspray on rubber seals, Orange Peel and bad colour match between panels as well as actual paint thickness anomalies with some flaws visible due to bad workmanship.

The paint job was also a "shut door" spray job with the door sills etc remaining in original condition and the later application of paint is not the correct colour. (close? yes but not close enough and the application of metallic particles is uneven and inconsistent)

Cosmetic dents, deep scratches to Duco, Brightwork is in poor condition and not matched with evidence of repair and/or replacement.

Bumper rubbers loose and badly fitted after car park "Rubs" and Bumper irons bent.

Wheels not the correct colour and in poor cosmetic condition and tyre size and brand not correct to OEM Spec.

Rear lenses unmatching in age and condition.

 

[Tony66_au]

Mechanically the car was quite good when i acquired it with everything working including vacuum components, sunroof, HVAC etc

Alex had done a fabulous job maintaining what is now a 38 year old car with over 700'000 Km on the chassis and THIS was a dream come true for me at the time I bought the car as I was still learning the ways of the M117 and W116.

However the interior is a disaster with knee rolls removed, carpet cut out of all footwells and center console partially dismantled along with a few other bits of trim, The Olive Leather interior is ok but showing wear to the drivers side and the rear leather needs work on the base of the rear seat due to cracks and small tears in the leather.

The front seats are excellent in form and function and have not sagged but they are dark blue.

The interior for now will be/is Bodgied up to provide form and function until I can do it justice with new skins and felt carpet but this is pretty much last on my agenda.

The Engine bay.

Filthy.

I am 75% of the way through the initial de-crud process, something that is taking a while as im treading carefully, I have tested Carburettor cleaner on some alloy components to remove staining and it works well enough but I think im going to have to do the Valve covers when I do the timing chains next.

All under bonnet components seem OEM except for the battery which is an RACV item and some HVAC hoses.

All decals seem in place and are in reasonably serviceable condition for their age.

Exposed wiring looms were filthy and are being carefully cleaned and re-wrapped.

 

[BenzBoy]

Well Tony, how long is a string or, better still, how many cans of worms would you like to open up ? What constitutes concours condition can be of individual interpretation. Some will contend that a nicely kept and maintained car, even with a well worn interior classified as having the right 'patina' is the car that should carry the bacon.

There are others that will restore their cars to the 'nth degree, with money spent being no object, and they will of course tell you that theirs is the ideal concours car. From a personal point of view, I follow a certain philosophy and it is as follows:

A car that looks as close in condition as to when it left the factory when new, should be the winner. I have previously referred to "patina" which usually relates to the condition of leather. In my opinion, seats re-upholstered in new leather has simply got to be better than leather that is nicely worn. Now, that's just my opinion, the next poster is just as likely to have a totally contrary opinion.

Maybe we could, or should, judge our own cars from a concours point of view and see what findings we come up with. I am prepared to put Gleaming Beauty through the hoops. Anyone else ? Mark, Ofonteney,Michel, Hoddo, SEL69L, Benz Boy and others ? Regards Styria

No. It takes me about 3 weeks of solid work to bring my Spirit up to Concours entry level - and I would need to replace the rear windscreen. It's already been the Club's best Post War Car and consistently won other awards. As for the ML - well, it has patina in buket loads and it's like putting on your favourite jeans or you most comfortable, well-worn boots. No; that would take 3 weeks plus a trip to the spray booth and some time with Parks.
However, as a "trained" judge, I would be happy to give you an appraisal of your car.
Let's just settle for agreeing that the principle of each to his own is the most satisfying.
Regards,
Brian

 

[260ebenz]

Excellent post Tony.

It is a shame you can not make it to the TK detailing day next month.

 

[BenzBoy]

Tony - here is a link to the Jaguar Club of Victoria Concours rules - note, they don't judge the underside of the car whereas in the RROCA we do.
http://www.jagvic.org.au/concours/rules

The Jaguar Clubs of North America - scroll down to the rule book on the left hand side of the page.
http://www.jcna.com/library/concours/index.php

The MBCNSW has Concours classes on its webpage but not rules or judging sheets.

Regards,
Brian

 

[Oversize]

Personally I view a concours contender as one with an immaculate history.... One with original books, a complete service history and (probably) a short list of previous owners. A little like a presidential candidate!!! It's just my view, but I wouldn't attempt concours unless I had a car with that standard of provenance. No matter how good the car looks, you can't restore a bad history! Have a look at how they retore GTHOs here in Aus and the GS/X Buicks in the US. Great attention is paid to the tiniest details, such as painted quality control dots and delivery tags etc. And trying to source a new set of 30+YO 14" tyres would be all but impossible.....

Unfortunately very few of my cars fall into this category, so it's unlikely you'll see me as an entrant in the near future. Man o War's probably the closest contender, but she'll need a lot of work. But I'll never say never! Plus I'm getting the feeling that all this isn't a judged aspect of an entrant anyway!

 

[BenzBoy]

You probably don't need an immaculate service history to show at Concours judging but you do need correct books and tools. Decals are important and when I judge I always check that the colour and trim codes shown on the appropriate plate actually match the colu=our and trim of the car.
During one episode of engine cleaning I destroyed a decal with the air gun - and found it very easy for a comouter shop to make new ones. Craig S also has a business re-manufacturing information plates for cars so it can all be done.
Regards,
Brian

 

[Tony66_au]

Tony - here is a link to the Jaguar Club of Victoria Concours rules - note, they don't judge the underside of the car whereas in the RROCA we do.
http://www.jagvic.org.au/concours/rules

The Jaguar Clubs of North America - scroll down to the rule book on the left hand side of the page.
http://www.jcna.com/library/concours/index.php

The MBCNSW has Concours classes on its webpage but not rules or judging sheets.

Regards,
Brian

Ta Brian, I can understand their not looking under a Jag lol

 

[Michel]

To qualify for Concours judging, a car has to be either original or restored to the original condition it left the factory in.

It has to be as authentic as possible, without over restoration and without modernisation.

Some clubs/marques permit modifications for safety without being penalised (blinkers, seat belts, etc...)

Some Car Clubs with a large membership would divide cars in 'authentic unrestored' and then 'restored class'.
Some would break them down to 'trailered unrestored' and 'trailered restored' as well as 'unrestored driven' etc...

Each club and each show has its own rules...

 

[Tony66_au]

Thanks Michel, I was starting to notice the differences of opinion re what constitutes Concours level cars.

Im a huge fan of Drivable unrestored and I have seen some great examples in the Chrysler world that looked like they were barely 12 months old, I have also seen some that have been authentically restored using many NOS parts and speciality paints and some that were over done to the point of ruination with high gloss clear over base colour finishes that were flawless in finish and perfect panel gap etc which as I am well aware just wasnt the case ex Tonsley Park even after tweaking lol.

Something I am following with my own Valiant so the thing looks close to how it would have in 1971.

And when the time comes for the Green 450 to have a coat of jam my "Gun" painter was muttering something about Cobra paint or similar and a base coat only which will make me happy, but the prep with will kill me or cost me im told.

AND! No Arch Trims either!