Hi guys for the brave http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes...-/251017116050?pt=AU_Cars&hash=item3a71c93992 
w140 S600
- Thread starter motec 6.9
- Start date
Brave or foolish...
Tony66_au
New Member
I was (A number of years ago) Looking at the W140's particularly the S500 and S600.
I figured the V12 S600 couldn't be worse than a V12 Jagwah and spoke to an Indy Euro mechanic who suggested I not bother unless I had deep pockets.
His reasons were many but self closing doors were one and the high tech gadgetry was pretty much the rest and didn't elaborate.
Thing is I still like the shape.
Can anyone elaborate on why these things are to be approached with caution?
I figured the V12 S600 couldn't be worse than a V12 Jagwah and spoke to an Indy Euro mechanic who suggested I not bother unless I had deep pockets.
His reasons were many but self closing doors were one and the high tech gadgetry was pretty much the rest and didn't elaborate.
Thing is I still like the shape.
Can anyone elaborate on why these things are to be approached with caution?
- Thread Starter
- #5
Hi Tony this should help i am lead to believe that the 2 biggest concerns are main wiring loom bio degradable and air con condenser http://forum.w116.org/auto-torque/w140-300sd/ http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=11923 http://www.topklasse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2663
http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=11923 http://www.topklasse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2663
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I actually test-drove a V12 before I started buying 6.9s. They're beautiful on the inside and have everything you could want, including a lovely sound system. They go like the clappers, but the traction control always spoils the fun. Unfortunately I found the experience rather insulated and detached. So very quiet, with no V8 throb, or even the mechanical noise of a V12. They're huge to park and it's very difficult to have an idea where it starts n ends. I wasn't particularly fond of the exterior style (too square and bulky), but the fact that they were listed as a high powered vehicle (prohibited for probationary drivers) had me intrigued.
The example I drove was cheap back then and a lot of car for the money. But it wasn't the best example and various things had me concerned. For starters there's a high percentage of plastic. Over time these things break and cannot be repaired successfully. Critical parts will fail and these include wiring sockets & plugs (of which there are plenty). MB decided to use lots of plastic in the engine bay and with all that heat many parts don't last (one example was the dipstick handle).
This was the era when MB also decided to use diagnostic equipment that patched into the computer systems on their cars. Being so complex, with so many ECUs they probably didn't have a choice... Without access to diagnostic devices it'd be a real challenge to find faults.
Almost everything was motorized and it's only a matter of time before things require attention. Again many parts contain plastic components that were never designed to be taken apart. Even if it was possible to disassemble parts, they're that complex it'd take hours to determine the problem and then go about fixing it. For some reason I have flashbacks of my brother's VW Passat!!
The computers aren't fixable and if you are lucky enough to be 100% positive an ECU IS faulty, they're huge dollars to replace.
MB also introduced hot wire air flow sensors and fly-by-wire which I never liked.
Many special tools are required and I think the mid nineties was when MB started using Torx bolts. They also lost the plot with model designation, as a 600SEL suddenly became a S600L. I could live with that, but it was all down hill from there.
They weren't that popular with the public and as a result they're fairly rare. Rare means $$$$$. Even the MB enthusiast that I just met (who had a partitially dismantled W140, along with many other earlier MBs) said they're a nightmare and one should stay away!
I really hope that all these issues aren't present in all post-W140 MBs. I can say plastic does feature quite heavily. The trend is towards throw-away now and that philosophy probably applies to all marques....
Bear in mind that I've never owned a W140 and that's probably because (for once), I actually listened to my gut instincts! I'm sure my hip pocket and bank manager will one day thank me!!
This also highlights why I chose the W116; a contemporary car actually designed for the M100, with chrome (not plastic) and parts that can be disassembled and repaired. An only one damn computer!
The example I drove was cheap back then and a lot of car for the money. But it wasn't the best example and various things had me concerned. For starters there's a high percentage of plastic. Over time these things break and cannot be repaired successfully. Critical parts will fail and these include wiring sockets & plugs (of which there are plenty). MB decided to use lots of plastic in the engine bay and with all that heat many parts don't last (one example was the dipstick handle).
This was the era when MB also decided to use diagnostic equipment that patched into the computer systems on their cars. Being so complex, with so many ECUs they probably didn't have a choice... Without access to diagnostic devices it'd be a real challenge to find faults.
Almost everything was motorized and it's only a matter of time before things require attention. Again many parts contain plastic components that were never designed to be taken apart. Even if it was possible to disassemble parts, they're that complex it'd take hours to determine the problem and then go about fixing it. For some reason I have flashbacks of my brother's VW Passat!!
The computers aren't fixable and if you are lucky enough to be 100% positive an ECU IS faulty, they're huge dollars to replace.
MB also introduced hot wire air flow sensors and fly-by-wire which I never liked.
Many special tools are required and I think the mid nineties was when MB started using Torx bolts. They also lost the plot with model designation, as a 600SEL suddenly became a S600L. I could live with that, but it was all down hill from there.
They weren't that popular with the public and as a result they're fairly rare. Rare means $$$$$. Even the MB enthusiast that I just met (who had a partitially dismantled W140, along with many other earlier MBs) said they're a nightmare and one should stay away!
I really hope that all these issues aren't present in all post-W140 MBs. I can say plastic does feature quite heavily. The trend is towards throw-away now and that philosophy probably applies to all marques....
Bear in mind that I've never owned a W140 and that's probably because (for once), I actually listened to my gut instincts! I'm sure my hip pocket and bank manager will one day thank me!!
This also highlights why I chose the W116; a contemporary car actually designed for the M100, with chrome (not plastic) and parts that can be disassembled and repaired. An only one damn computer!
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Tony66_au
New Member
Hi Tony this should help i am lead to believe that the 2 biggest concerns are main wiring loom bio degradable and air con condenser http://forum.w116.org/auto-torque/w140-300sd/
Biodegradable loom? WTF!
Thanks Mo..
THAT comment effectively silenced the little voice that is still saying "Surely it cant be all THAT bad, The Jags were pretty good after you had them sorted so how hard can a biodegradable Mercedes be?"
SEL_69L
Aristocrat
I would think high fuel consumption would be the least of your problems.
There is much more to go wrong in a w140 v12 than there is in a 6.9. This particular variety of V12 was not the most reliable with oil leaks being many.
Specialist knowledge is needed to fix all of that everything. The electronics needs to be properly understood, and specialist test equipment is needed to support it. No computer lasts that long, so I guess the electronics in the car would be completely outdated.
That car is now 20 years old and has covered the same sort of distance normally found in a 6.9.
It is almost certain that this car has only had minimal servicing and maintenance in the last 10 years, due to the high costs involved. Skimping on costs in this area will not save the new owner any money.
I think it could be bought for what would appear to be a bargain, but it will cost the purchase price each year just to keep it going, with everything working.
There is much more to go wrong in a w140 v12 than there is in a 6.9. This particular variety of V12 was not the most reliable with oil leaks being many.
Specialist knowledge is needed to fix all of that everything. The electronics needs to be properly understood, and specialist test equipment is needed to support it. No computer lasts that long, so I guess the electronics in the car would be completely outdated.
That car is now 20 years old and has covered the same sort of distance normally found in a 6.9.
It is almost certain that this car has only had minimal servicing and maintenance in the last 10 years, due to the high costs involved. Skimping on costs in this area will not save the new owner any money.
I think it could be bought for what would appear to be a bargain, but it will cost the purchase price each year just to keep it going, with everything working.
Tony66_au
New Member
You see that was my problem Mark, I drove one or 3 of em and they were very nice and eminently chuckable in a barge like manner and although the 500 was very nice the 600 had a certain something to it that called me and the auto door thing had me by the nutz figuratively speaking.
10 plus year old diag systems will have patches and workarounds available cheaply and anyone with an Android phone can get a bluetooth connector and free software so thats not an issue but aging plastics are a pain.
I haven't driven or been driven in a Maybach but I suspect that part of the inspiration came from the S600 as it is a majestic beast but for practical reasons I aimed a bit lower at the V8's.
10 plus year old diag systems will have patches and workarounds available cheaply and anyone with an Android phone can get a bluetooth connector and free software so thats not an issue but aging plastics are a pain.
I haven't driven or been driven in a Maybach but I suspect that part of the inspiration came from the S600 as it is a majestic beast but for practical reasons I aimed a bit lower at the V8's.
I actually test-drove a V12 before I started buying 6.9s. They're beautiful on the inside and have everything you could want, including a lovely sound system. They go like the clappers, but the traction control always spoils the fun. Unfortunately I found the experience rather insulated and detached. So very quiet, with no V8 throb, or even the mechanical noise of a V12. They're huge to park and it's very difficult to have an idea where it starts n ends. I wasn't particularly fond of the exterior style (too square and bulky), but the fact that they were listed as a high powered vehicle (prohibited for probationary drivers) had me intrigued.
The example I drove was cheap back then and a lot of car for the money. But it wasn't the best example and various things had me concerned. For starters there's a high percentage of plastic. Over time these things break and cannot be repaired successfully. Critical parts will fail and these include wiring sockets & plugs (of which there are plenty). MB decided to use lots of plastic in the engine bay and with all that heat many parts don't last (one example was the dipstick handle).
This was the era when MB also decided to use diagnostic equipment that patched into the computer systems on their cars. Being so complex, with so many ECUs they probably didn't have a choice... Without access to diagnostic devices it'd be a real challenge to find faults.
Almost everything was motorized and it's only a matter of time before things require attention. Again many parts contain plastic components that were never designed to be taken apart. Even if it was possible to disassemble parts, they're that complex it'd take hours to determine the problem and then go about fixing it. For some reason I have flashbacks of my brother's VW Passat!!
The computers aren't fixable and if you are lucky enough to be 100% positive an ECU IS faulty, they're huge dollars to replace.
MB also introduced hot wire air flow sensors and fly-by-wire which I never liked.
Many special tools are required and I think the mid nineties was when MB started using Torx bolts. They also lost the plot with model designation, as a 600SEL suddenly became a S600L. I could live with that, but it was all down hill from there.
They weren't that popular with the public and as a result they're fairly rare. Rare means $$$$$. Even the MB enthusiast that I just met (who had a partitially dismantled W140, along with many other earlier MBs) said they're a nightmare and one should stay away!
I really hope that all these issues aren't present in all post-W140 MBs. I can say plastic does feature quite heavily. The trend is towards throw-away now and that philosophy probably applies to all marques....
Bear in mind that I've never owned a W140 and that's probably because (for once), I actually listened to my gut instincts! I'm sure my hip pocket and bank manager will one day thank me!!
This also highlights why I chose the W116; a contemporary car actually designed for the M100, with chrome (not plastic) and parts that can be disassembled and repaired. An only one damn computer!
- Thread Starter
- #10
Hi Tony i have first dibs on a 93 s600 that has been owned by my uncle since new it has very low millage complete service history and new condenser and loom . By the way replacement is not biodegradable but is over $2000 condenser is over $5000 to replace . And even with the history off this car i still doudt myself for telling my uncle i will take it off his hands when he decides to sell . As he no longer drives and his son drives him to where he needs to go.
Tony66_au
New Member
See that's where the value is, a 600 with good provenance.
SEL 69L you think just like me!!!!
Not long after my first post on this thread I thought; how many people still use a desktop computer that dates back to 1992 (20 years old)? Most geeks would be rolling around on the floor in hysterics! Even in a semi-controlled environment (an office, or study), they'd still have huge problems. So put many of these into a harsh environment that is a motor vehicle, connect them with dodgy deteriorating plastic connectors and you can see where this is going; it's a receipe for disaster....
I don't know about biodegradeable; more likely just recycleable or renewable.
Not long after my first post on this thread I thought; how many people still use a desktop computer that dates back to 1992 (20 years old)? Most geeks would be rolling around on the floor in hysterics! Even in a semi-controlled environment (an office, or study), they'd still have huge problems. So put many of these into a harsh environment that is a motor vehicle, connect them with dodgy deteriorating plastic connectors and you can see where this is going; it's a receipe for disaster....
I don't know about biodegradeable; more likely just recycleable or renewable.
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I have always liked the shape and implied bulkiness of its styling - just pure class, although colour can make or break them. Our Matt, of course, has a 280 and he has nothing but praise for the car. I wonder if he still feels the same now that he has his new toy.
Also Matt is pretty cluey and knows where to buy his parts - that's a very important factor. Me ? I am now over the stage where I need to think of new headaches. Regards Styria
Also Matt is pretty cluey and knows where to buy his parts - that's a very important factor. Me ? I am now over the stage where I need to think of new headaches. Regards Styria
Tony66_au
New Member
I think that's a huge part of the ownership of any exotica, You HAVE to be plugged in to a good source of parts and tech because without that it can be painful and frustrating.
WGB
New Member
It was an optional extra on W140's and also the earlier 124's and filled in the painted area around the number plate with coloured reflectors.
Diesel Motors always had one sitting in a display cabinet until they shifted across the road.
It could be purchased at the dealer but when the 300E became an E320 they changed the shape of the boot so it was no longer an option - presumably 140's did the same thing.
The engine wiring of all Benz 6,8,12 cylinder cars of this early 1990's era is problematic as the insulation breaks down with heat and presumably if left unrepaired shorts out the engine management computer.
In the case of the early V12 - Four engine managment computers.
Be brave, either get to know your mechanic well or get your own computer and software and stretch the bounds of your ability.
Oh yes - four years ago the pump that closes the doors was $2,400 ex-dealer but The Star Shop refirbished them for about $800 at the time.
Bill
That's the guy I bought my first 6.9 from! Interestingly, he sold that as he considered it "excessive" compared to the (w116) 450s that he had.
The chrome "eyebrows" on the headlights are interesting too.
I also concur with the "stay away" feeling here - the way I see it, cars from roughly the w140 onwards are beyond the abilities of the back yardie to maintain, simply because:
For early complicated cars like the 600, 6.3, 6.9, pretty much everything is mechanical, and can be rebuilt or remanufactured from lumps of metal if need be (not necessarily cheaply, but at least it is possible). Overhauling an ECU, let alone building a new one - pass.
I'v been following for a few years now the blog of a guy that recently bought himself a VW Phaeton. That is rivalled only by the S600 for depreciation, and I am both bemused and horrified by his accounts of how many motors and controllers that car has in it. If you are interested, see here.
Lukas
PS - it has the same plates my 6.9 had I think!
The chrome "eyebrows" on the headlights are interesting too.
I also concur with the "stay away" feeling here - the way I see it, cars from roughly the w140 onwards are beyond the abilities of the back yardie to maintain, simply because:
- Diagnostics are too hard - need specialist gear
- Spares will become too difficult and expensive to source
For early complicated cars like the 600, 6.3, 6.9, pretty much everything is mechanical, and can be rebuilt or remanufactured from lumps of metal if need be (not necessarily cheaply, but at least it is possible). Overhauling an ECU, let alone building a new one - pass.
I'v been following for a few years now the blog of a guy that recently bought himself a VW Phaeton. That is rivalled only by the S600 for depreciation, and I am both bemused and horrified by his accounts of how many motors and controllers that car has in it. If you are interested, see here.
Lukas
PS - it has the same plates my 6.9 had I think!
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- Thread Starter
- #17
Hi Bill yes i am aware about the cost as stated i have a uncle who bought a S600 in 93 shortly before retiring i have seen the repair bills . The car has been offered to me in the future this car has never missed a service and has under 60000km on it . Yet i still question my sanity if i take this car in the future . I know i want it but will it destroy me
Tony66_au
New Member
BenzBoy
Grand Master
"The engine wiring of all Benz 6,8,12 cylinder cars of this early 1990's era is problematic as the insulation breaks down with heat and presumably if left unrepaired shorts out the engine management computer."
Does that also apply to the wiring of a W126?
Regards,
Brian
Does that also apply to the wiring of a W126?
Regards,
Brian
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