Ethanol

[BenzBoy]

I know we have discussed ethanol before and not arrived at a conclusion but here is a new development. In today's Sydney Morning Herald (p.13)there is a report that the NSW government intends to mandate 10% ethanol in standard unleaded petrol by 2010. There have been many recommendations along these lines for about 6 months now. Ther report says that ethanol can be used in most, but not all, fuel injection sysytems - but not in carburettors.
Two questions;
1. Why can't ethanol be used in a curburettor?
2. What will it mean for the user of older cars? What does it mean for Des with a 170?
OK - for the moment premium uleaded does not contain ethanol unless you use V Power Racing but will premium remain ethanol free?
Regards,
BenzBoy

 

[OzBenzHead]

Last year I raised this very issue of (NSW) mandated ethanol with my local club (Summerland Sports and Classic Car Club). I drafted and circulated a letter that most members subsequently signed and sent to Mr Dilemma (woops - Iemma!).

The letter was also sent to every other car club on our club's mailing list for circulation through their newsletters. I have no idea what the response from other clubs was like.

Okay, so the majority of cars on the road daily (the modern, plasticky things that the government and manufacturers would like us all to buy - and throw away - every five years) can drink alcohol, and our minority favourite "old bangers" can't, so the appeals of owners of classics may likely be ignored by those in power.

For such an appeal to even be heard, it needs to be made by all of use, no matter the breed/s of car we prefer.

Governments and the public also need to know a few other facts about ethanol. These include:

* it currently takes about 1.4 litres of dino fuels to produce one litre of (lower energy) ethanol

* in places (in the US) where ethanol is produced in bulk, there are major instances of cancer clusters occurring, apparently courtesy of airborne carcinogens emitted by the ethanol manufactories.

Ethanol as internal-combustion fuel is looking more and more like a bad cause; I believe it to be little more than:

* a misguided and ill-informed attempt at "going green" - where conclusions are too readily jumped to on flimsy factual foundations, and

* a means of propping up an unsustainable sugar-cane industry (in Oz) and corn/maize industry (in the US); it is, in fact, a thinly disguised form of subsidising inefficient, unsustainable, and inappropriate crop farming.

NO! NO! NO! to ethanol!

 

[Mercules]

Forgive my ignorance - but I am assuming Ethanol blended fuels are not compatible with the W116? Should I start making some EFI manifolds for you all right now?

Cam

 

[BenzBoy]

No. I am reliably informed that ethanol can be tolerated (contrary to previous advice I was given) by a W116 which has the original type injector seals and valve stem seals. Later M-Bs seem to have these seals made of a cheaper material that is attacked by ethanol.
Each day I learn more about this stuff and each day I like it less. Bring back Super with its real petrol smell and silver exhaust.
Regards,
BenzBoy
Ps; makes me sound like an aging rocker....

 

[OzBenzHead]

No. I am reliably informed that ethanol can be tolerated (contrary to previous advice I was given) by a W116 which has the original type injector seals and valve stem seals. Later M-Bs seem to have these seals made of a cheaper material that is attacked by ethanol. [...] BenzBoy

BenzBoy: Would you care to share your recent enlightenment? (If you've done this elsewhere and I've missed it, forgive my asking; I've been exceptionally busy with work lately and have doubtless missed a lot of forum action.)

And how many of our 116s are sure to be totally original in the fuel department - or how can we each be sure they are - unless, of course, we've owned them since brand new and have been honestly and fully informed of the nature of replacement parts?

I'd buy tetraethyl lead and add it to my fuel before I'd accept ethanol in my Benzes (seeing as the newest one I have is a December '79 build and therefore, to all advice I've received / knowledge I've gleaned, is not suited to ethanol-laced fuels).

Mercules: It's not just the injection system that ethanol is detrimental to: it's all the rubbers and plastics in the entire fuel system, as well as the steel tanks and lines, that are - according to my understanding - negatively affected by alcohols in any appreciable quantity over any extended period (so just the occasional flush with a cupful is possibly harmless enough).

 

[BenzBoy]

My recent enlightenment came from an independent engineer who works on Benzes and who has done so for a long time. He has been conducting his own research into ethanol and its impact on various Benzes. I also spoke to an engineer from Benz who confirms this - neither wants to be named publicly but I respect their views. Both have moved their positions on ethanol following experience withe cars that are currenly using it.
I was most interested in the question of why a carburettor will not operate properly on ethanol. The answer it seems is that ethanol has a gummy residue which does not cause a problem in a pressurised injection system but which gums up a carburettor over a period of time causing the venturi effect to (I suppose this is the way to put it) loose its hurricane effect and thus not draw petrol out of the jets. It seems the jets also block. My knowledge is tentative and I hope to find out more as time goes on.
What appals me is the lack of real science in this whole issue. I note that the CSIRO has been particularly quiet on the issue of ethanol - and yet we now that it has a massive carbon footprint (yes, more journo-jargon) as it requires massive crop production to produce. Oh, I'm also told it can be made from trees that can be planted in desert areas. Hmmmm. It's starting to sound like Earth Hour gone wild.
Regards,
BenzBoy

 

[OzBenzHead]

[...] It's starting to sound like Earth Hour gone wild. BenzBoy

Thanks for that. I shall be interested to discover more.

As for Earth Hour: Bah humbug! Perhaps it was a good publicity stunt for the "cause", but consider this:

1. All those candles burning for Earth Hour probably produced enough sooty smoke to make up for any imagined saving in power-station carbon emissions.

2. Australian power stations are generally coal-fired. One cannot simply turn off a coal-fired / steam-powered generator for an hour! The only option for the power stations when less power is being used than is being generated is to let off steam into the atmosphere - effectively wasting the muck-emitting coal fire that continues to emit regardless!

As I said: Bah humbug!

Available for the asking: PDFs of the following documents on ethanol (not all leaning in the same direction):

Ethanol: What's it all about? (ECOS magazine)

Effects of Ethanol (E85) versus Gasoline Vehicles on Cancer and Mortality in the United States (Environmental Science and Technology magazine)

Arguing the case for renewable fuels (WRI newsletter - Western Research Institute (Charles Sturt University)

Capability of vehicles to satisfactorily operate on Ethanol-Blend petrol (Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries [Australia]).

 

[BenzBoy]

OBH - they sound like sources well worth reading.
Are you in a position to email them? Or, can you point me in the direction of obtaining them, please?
Regards,
BenzBoy

 

[OzBenzHead]

[...] Are you in a position to email them? [...] BenzBoy

Sent.

Bugger! The forum software rejected my "Sent" [+ smiley] as "too short - make your post at least 10 characters"!

By that criterion, the shortest sentence in the Bible would only just sneak it in if one counted the closing period: "Jesus wept."!

 

[BenzBoy]

Sent.

Bugger! The forum software rejected my "Sent" [+ smiley] as "too short - make your post at least 10 characters"!

By that criterion, the shortest sentence in the Bible would only just sneak it in if one counted the closing period: "Jesus wept."!

So "I am" would be rejected too!! Software has a mind of its own. Twice today I have purchsed new software on the net and in both cases the download and install instructions were wide of the mark. Thankfully, a W116 can NOT think for itself. (Well neither can software...)
Regards,
BenzBoy

 

[John S]

I find it hard to believe that Ethanol leaves a gummy residue in the system, leave a cup of Metho out (from memory 95% ethanol, 5% methanol (the stuff that can kill you) with a dash of fusel oil and see what is left. Ethanol fuels are now used in a number of countries overseas ranging from 10% to a high of 25% in Brazil. Ethanol contains less energy that gasoline and requires a different fuel / air ratio, so I am assuming that is why 10% alcohol is the recommended loading - after that the mixture has to be changed. Dragsters that use Ethanol to develop high horsepower (excellent octane rating but low energy) have fuel jets more like biro tube size than the one's we are used to using, so perhaps the carburetor is not as flexible in handling Alcohol as fuel injection. Don't forget the water that alcohol readily absorbs too, a small amount is ok but too much causes problems.