Another Racer For Team W116 ?

[Michel]

I have been following (from a distance) what Oscar, Cam and to an extent Ian have done with their race cars.

I have been toying with the idea of doing something along the same lines and have been keeping an eye on the market for a 116 to turn up (obviously at the right price, preferably for next to nothing)

I'd like a 450SLC, but the price (for my budget) of a cheap one is prohibitive.

My thoughts are to find a 450SE (SWB) and go from there.

Any suggestions?

 

[B13]

I've always thought a 450SE (or any SWB W116) with a K-jet V8, then upgraded to a 500 or 560 engine would be pretty formidible.

Also the idea of E-mans Frankenbenz from the other forum would also be an awesome idea for a track car.

As for D-jet vs K jet, I suppose its what your long term plans for the car are. If you want to convert to modern EFI then the D-jet is easier. If you want to upgrade to a bigger W126 engine, the K-jet systems are similar on both cars, making those cars easier to upgrade.

As for performance, Cam and I have found the 450 engine to be adequate.

I.

 

[Michel]

I've always thought a 450SE (or any SWB W116) with a K-jet V8, then upgraded to a 500 or 560 engine would be pretty formidible.
Also the idea of E-mans Frankenbenz from the other forum would also be an awesome idea for a track car.
As for D-jet vs K jet, I suppose its what your long term plans for the car are. If you want to convert to modern EFI then the D-jet is easier. If you want to upgrade to a bigger W126 engine, the K-jet systems are similar on both cars, making those cars easier to upgrade.
As for performance, Cam and I have found the 450 engine to be adequate.
I.

Thanks Ian,

Believe me I find the 6.9 not powerful enough for my taste, so I think a 450 HAS to be tweaked or else a larger engine needs to be inserted.

I serioulsy toyed with the idea of having a 6.9 as a track car... and who knows, maybe I will.
But for now, the safe bet is a steel sprung W116.

 

[TJ 450]

I've always thought a 450SE (or any SWB W116) with a K-jet V8, then upgraded to a 500 or 560 engine would be pretty formidible.

I second that. The only issues are not being able to bolt the three speed up to the alloy block M117s, the electronic oil pressure gauge and electronic speedo.

The easiest way of doing it would be to install the early K-Jet 500 engine with the four speed and force it to start in 1st gear.

You would have to install the electronic speedo and combination gauge unit from a late 107 and perform some wiring modifications. A custom tailshaft would also be required, because I think the four speed transmission is shorter overall.

The 560 and 500s with KE-Jet have an electronically controlled transmission. I think it is needlessly complicated for such a project.

Having said all this, I think the three speed transmission is a much stronger unit and the 450 engine lends itself to many modifications.

Tim

 

[Lukas]

I serioulsy toyed with the idea of having a 6.9 as a track car... and who knows, maybe I will.

The guy I got the 6.9 suspension bits off here in Canberra was putting the drivetrain from that same car into a 450SE - best of both worlds.

 

[Michel]

The guy I got the 6.9 suspension bits off here in Canberra was putting the drivetrain from that same car into a 450SE - best of both worlds.

Do you know what his plans for the car were?

 

[oscar]

Don't mean to butt in on your question Michel but... coooool!

 

[SELfor50]

I'd like a 450SLC, but the price (for my budget) of a cheap one is prohibitive.

Michel, spur me the small budget talk.

I reckon that's great dude. Few small things though.

Team W116 requires an initial payment of $20,000 (or a free paintjob) and annual fees of $5,000 (or more free paintjobs) to cover the franchising agreement.

Haha... all jokes.

On a serious note, I reckon if you do decide to go ahead with it 100%, you won't regret it!! You can even also save a whole bunch of time on development, as most of the stuff we've tried now has been tested and evaluated as best 'budget' solution.

On the note of the 450 M117 engine.. No need for speccing up these puppies to start with. Find a decent serviced specimen, change the timing chain. And the lap times will come. If you look at the last round from Oran park, i've done absolutely no modifications to the engine of my M117, i'm lapping within 4 seconds of 2 different Evo 8's, above and also within the realm of tonnes of different model M3's.
With the right gearing, the car has plenty power to say giants.

On the gearbox;

TJ, does the K-jet 500's have a Hydraulic 4 speed Auto??? If so, I never knew.. I always thought they were all electric.
Because the 3 speed hydraulic standard box in the 450 works wonders for me.
Ultimate would be to get it properly customized (reversed/manualised) so it's basically sequential shift...with a proper shift kit.


Lukas, the dude you got the suspension parts from, that wasn't Mark on the southside was it???


Anyway, sounds exciting Michel. Do you plan on transplanting the engine regardless or having a dig with the stock M117?



PS. Let me know if you need bank details to deposit the franchise fees.

 

[oscar]

I'm glad you piped in Cam coz I did originally have a much longer post but essentially saying that of all the mods you've done to your car, the engine hasn't been enhanced other than doing maintenance items as anyone would do for a daily driver. And we all know how fast it can go as seen in that vid with the Z3 coupe.

If someone was to throw money at a 450 engine including cam grinds, upgraded ignition, compression raised, extractors, new FI etc etc, that was akin to what others throw into other older cars that appear at sprints, I wouldn't contemplate an alloy block M117 conversion. If the idea of wanting a racer out of the box so to speak and the alloy m117 500 or 560 was the preferred stock power plant, I'd possibly drop the w116 idea and go for a w126 sec and race that.

You know much more about motorsport than me Michel and will know all too well how money is exponentially proportional to speed and performance. FWIW I've done some rough sums after mentally adding up some things to get povo where it's at and this is a conservative estimate and doesn't include everything but $4000 so far:

600 for the car
500 paint
500 oil and other fluids
600 tyres
400 17" wheels
800 autohaus parts
400 MbSpares and Silver Star Spares
200 steering wheel

$800 in parts cars has also provided so many parts, dizzy, radiator, panels etc, I can't really calculate their worth so far plus there's the electric fan and I can't remember what else. QFM brake pads, race harness, race seat are not too distant upgrades and when I finally get back to the engine, whether it be cams ground and extractors or forced induction, who knows what the final tally will be or if it will ever end.

My point is, we know it costs to get involved and build up a track car but if you've got the dough up front, maybe look for something more expensive unless you want to really start from scratch.

Whoa, stop press, hows about this Michel.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/350-Chev-Pow...286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:4|65:10|39:1|240:1318

 

[Fotografa]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mercedes-450...s=66:2|65:10|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:50

 

[John S]

Michel, look for a '74 or '75 year 450SE. The 74 / 75 has the full power engine plus the SE version is a lot lighter than the SEL!

 

[Michel]

Michel, look for a '74 or '75 year 450SE. The 74 / 75 has the full power engine plus the SE version is a lot lighter than the SEL!

Thanks John,

I'll keep that in mind

 

[Michel]

Let's get to serious business.

Where can I race this car and how much modifications can I do?

For example, can I ?

Remove all bumpers (front and rear)?
Can I gut the whole interior?
Can I gut the doors (except drivers side) and weld the back ones to the body (leaving nothing but a shell with some perspex instead of glass)?
What sort of modifications am I NOT allowed?

These are the sort of questions I would like answered...
But remember, I want to race 'with you guys'....

 

[B13]

Alright lesse... start from the start.

As you know you need to be a member of a CAMS afiliated car club, which is easy, there are hundreds of them... check CAMS web site.

Then you need a CAMS level 2S license or better which I presume you already have since you've taken the 690SEL out at OP you'd have needed something like that.

Now, armed with those two items you can then start inviting yourself to any club level event that the various clubs in NSW are running. No club has the finances to run 12+ events a year so they typically run 4-5 events and invite members from other clubs to join in.

Where I am, in Victoria, I keep and eye on the Ford Four Car club ( www.ffcc.asn.au ) and Marque Car Club ( www.msca.com.au ) which have a calendar of events for the year and I just invite myself to whichever ones I feel like attending. It should be easy to find similar clubs in NSW.

I race at the 4 major tracks in Victoria: Calder, Sandown, Philip Is. and Winton, and also at the autocross facility at Avalon. Once or twice a year the other two lads join me at either Sandown or Winton.

Now to answer your questions:

Remove all bumpers (front and rear)?

Yes you can.

Can I gut the doors (except drivers side) and weld the back ones to the body (leaving nothing but a shell with some perspex instead of glass)?

Yes you can, but people rarely do this, you still need to keep the impact intrusion bar inside the door. It also severely restricts working in the rear compartment of the cabin but its your call. If you weld all 4 doors Nascar style then you need window nets on the front doors.

Can I gut the whole interior?

Yes you can. The less in there the better. If you have the $ you can even remove the whole dash and heater, console, the lot. Ideally all you want in the cabin are the seat and harness, sports steering wheel, pedals and gauges. And your fire extinguisher. Some people even make an alloy instrument binnacle and populate it with autometer gauges, if thats your thing.

What sort of modifications am I NOT allowed?

No nitrous. Slick tyres are allowed but the car has to have a roll cage, but with the semi-slick tyres we use (Yokohama A032/A048 family) are allowed without a roll cage.

Your tyres must remain within the confines of the bodywork (so if you are fitting ultra deep dish wheels then you need to flare the guards). No wheel spacers allowed.

Any other questions just ask.

I.

 

[B13]

What sort of modifications am I NOT allowed?

Oh I just remembered you are not allowed to run an un-muffled exhaust or megaphone tailpile. Noise (exhaust and intake noise) had to be less than 95dB as measured from a 30m drive-by.

Side pipes with small mufflers, however, are allowed. And encouraged.

I.

 

[SEL_69L]

I was looking at some spec. info. for the 450 SE and 450 SEL. According to F. Wilson Mc Comb "Mercedes-Benz V8s", the weight for the 450 SE is 1765 kg and for the 450 SEL is 1790 kg, not very much heavier. The SEL is 10cm longer.

 

[Michel]

I was looking at some spec. info. for the 450 SE and 450 SEL. According to F. Wilson Mc Comb "Mercedes-Benz V8s", the weight for the 450 SE is 1765 kg and for the 450 SEL is 1790 kg, not very much heavier. The SEL is 10cm longer.

That is only 25 kilos.... But that could be an advantage....

 

[Michel]

B13

Thanks for the information Ian.

Gives me plenty of things to think about...

A few more questions
How about brakes?
Can you put something else? Later model-larger perhaps?

And the intake?
Can one put Modified electronic injection?

 

[Des]

Dear Michel

Have you ever considered a Ponton race car?

A historic racer like Grant from South Africa is doing,



I know you like these cars.

 

[B13]

A few more questions
How about brakes?
Can you put something else? Later model-larger perhaps?

And the intake?
Can one put Modified electronic injection?

Yes to all.

Point to remember though, there's three classes that the cars can be built for.

"Improved" class, used to be called standard class and only allows limited modifications and the cars are run basically in road form with allowanced for upgraded tyres, wheels, brake pads, exhausts, steering wheel, but basically its a road car retaining the interior and exterior fittings, and original engine etc. None of us actually compete in this category as its mainly for beginners who are trying out their first couple of sprints in their daily driven car.

"Modified" class, allows more radical modifications, bigger brakes, wheels and tyres, forced induction where there wasn't originally, engine conversions, gearbox and diff conversions, suspension upgrades utilising original mounting points, stripping of interiors except for seats, upgrade seats and seatbelts to sports seats and harnesses, side pipes, extraneous external items removal etc. This is the category our cars compete in.

"Racing" class, basically no limits to modifications except those mentioned earlier, and you can use slick tyres, fiberglass replacement panels, perspex windows, re-designed spaceframe chassis relocating engine further rearward and custom suspension setups. These cars cost $50K - $70K minimum and in the world of state level competition are called "Sports sedans" and the practice taken to the extreme you end up with whats commonly referred to as a "V8 supercar". The three of us have have grandiose ideas of competing in MBs built to this standard but given that we're all middle income wage earners with mortgages, the only thing which will get us even close is a well chosen power-ball.

You can have a lot of fun in the modified class with very few restrictions and in truth a fair number of well thought out modified class cars are as quick as some of the racing class cars.

My latest box of tricks, a 190E, should (on paper at least) be as quick as some of the slower racing class cars thanks to its help from Mr Garrett (no relation to the federal environment minister), and its firmly built to modified category specs.

Engine bay of a 190E club race car.

I.