5/6 Speed Manual Conversion Kit

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ajsimpson

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As stated in another thread, I have been away from home the past few years and have not been able to do anything other than gather parts for my car. Pursuit of this conversion has taken me to New Zealand, The Netherlands, and Germany. Originally the transmission that I'd chosen to use was one from the Toyota Supra Turbo, the R154. I have since decided against using it. Not that I've found something inherently wrong with it, but I will now be using two others that I, just think is better (Tremec & Richmond).
I have since added an SLC to the stable and both cars will receive manual transmissions, among other things.
I've learned so much in this long, slow process.
I am at the point of being able to actually develop a conversion kit. I am not trying to sell anything here. I am simply trying to find out if there are any that may have an interest in converting their cars?
Any replies or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks, A.J.
 

Styria

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Hi A.J. - it's interesting to get your input regarding the possible conversion to 5/6 speed manual transmissions. I don't know how the torque from a 6.9 would affect reliability on a manual transmission, but I do tend to think that the Tremec unit ought to be strong enough - what do you think ? Is this the unit that's fitted to Fords ?

There is a local guy in Sydney that provided five speeders to the 6.3, but the cost some threto five years ago was on the wrong side of the $5K. mark - a lot to pay just for the satisfaction of driving a manual car. He did take me for a run in his 6.3 and to be honest, I wasn't quite capable of appreciating the conversion - you really have to drive the car yourself to get the "feel" of a manual.

Do you have any idea at this stage what sort of cost factor one would be looking at, and what sort of modifications be involved ? BTW, I am not particularly concerned whether or not you are trying to market a product. In my opinion, any information or news is worthwhile publishing on the forum. Regards Styria
 
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ajsimpson

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Hi Styria,
I have so much to say on this subject, and it all starts with driving my own car. I love the car, but I hate it too. It simply isn't setup properly for enjoyable driving. It's even, just only ok for light cruising around the town. When it comes to open road driving the fun stops, and all bets are off. Let me qualify that statement, we're talking totally brand new suspension, with a near perfect engine of only 40,000 miles. That's partly another subject, so I'll try to stay on topic. 5 speed!
There is nothing like driving a properly setup 5 speed. The fun factor is huge, and the benefits are many. All of which I'm sure that you are aware of. Did I mention the Fun Factor.
Mercedes did make a few 4 speeds back in the day (I have one), but the gearing was wrong, and it wasn't setup for performance.
My idea is simple: Use a modern day transmission (R154, Tremec, Richmond) that can handle anything thrown at it, gear it to match the running gear, and have a happy life. The R154 is not easy to re-gear.
The hard part is finding a way to punch out a quality bell housing to mate up to the different transmissions. At the end of the day the Tremec will probably be the transmission of choice, followed by the Richmond. In my opinion Richmond is #1, but the Tremec has a lot more going for it. It tends to be easier on the wallet, easily re-geared, readily available, robust, the shifter is easily repositioned, and gives a very good feel when moving through the gears. Richmond is my first choice, but it is a side shifter, and that must be dealt with, but you are rewarded with better everything. Sourcing ones own transmission will be much cheaper then anything I may provide.
The pedal box is exactly what Mercedes would have provided, so it is an oem setup.
The flywheel is lighter, and made of aluminum.
The drive shaft is lighter, and made of aluminum.
This is not a radical setup. It's an oem setup with modern day parts.
However, I do think the shifter should be shorter then the original, no one should be burdened with an old grandpa style shifter.
R&D is where I've spent my money, it's where anyone that manufactures anything spends their money. Having said that, the cost has to remain on the left side of 5 grand.
These car are a small market to begin with, and it get's smaller still, when you consider how many will want to convert.
I would be insane if I thought that there was real money to be made. I currently have everything that I need to finish my own two cars. Short of testing, I'm pretty much done. I am doing this for the love of the car.
I always hear purist say things that give manufactures god like powers. "If it was intended, they would have put it there" etc.
Manufacturing always, always, always, comes down to money, and Mercedes is no different then any other auto manufacture in that regard. They built these cars and marketed them to a select group of people, in order to make a buck. No different then what they do now. Could they have made the car better "Yes". Take an AMG car for example. AMG was a virtually unknown independent tuner at one time, with an idea, not all that much different then myself. They were certainly not Mercedes Benz, but they took a car, tuned it, dressed it up, and it's a highly sought after. There is nothing pure about that.
I am focused on making a quality product, that a guy can install himself, or hand over to a mechanic and have it installed in a straightforward manner. This should not gut the soul of the car, but rather enhance the character of that soul.
I must go back and re-read your post. I'm not sure if I've answered any of your questions.
As I've stated stated, I have so much to say on the subject (maybe too much), and I apologize if I've gotten side tracked.

A.J.
 

BenzBoy

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You're dead right there! There is nothing better than a slick manual box. Even a Moss in good condition is fun and sorts the men from the boys -especially true if yr box lacks synchro. Mind you, I have a lady friend in her 70s and her down shifts in her non-synchro 20/25 are so well timed she does not need to use the clutch; just a toe on the power pedal as she moves through from 3rd to 2nd.
So why can't we have manual boxes as standard? To my way of thinking if, you can't drive a manual better than an automatic then you can't drive.
Now the fun factor - that's the real reason.
I say; good on you for attempting the conversion and I wish you the very best of success with it.
Regards,
Benz-Boy
 
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ajsimpson

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Now that's the type of response that I was hoping to hear. Even if you don't convert your car per say, it helps to confirm my belief that, the guys, and girls that own these cars today, are not the people the same people that Mercedes originally marketed to. I do know that I'm not that person. When this car was new, I was struggling to make payments on Honda Accord, I could't possibly have afforded this car. I'll tell you what's funny, now that I can afford what newness that Mercedes has to offer, I still remain outside of their targeted market. Although, now that I own several cars, my newest car is 94 Jag XJ12. You'd never catch me buying a new car.

I do believe that the current owners are from a different generation, they think differently, they're more hip, much more forward thinking, and possess the ability to see past the nose on their faces.

They want to have fun with their rides, dress them up, show them off, and hold they're own on motorways with a soccer moms minivan, same as me. Don't kid yourself, a soccer moms minivan in a bad state of tune can give you hell.

When I look around and see guys swapping in Chevy motors, 6.9's, V12's, and who knows what else, that told me something. These cars no longer dominated by you grandfather, or the guy in the stuffy suit, wearing brown wing tipped shoes. The new owners want some juice. This generational thing is not segregated by age. The generation that I'm talking about encompasses all that are not held back by the status quo.

The thing that jumped out at me was what wasn't happening. No one was doing anything manual.

Once I looked into it, it seemed obvious as to why. It's kinda hard to work with something that you don't have. I guy with desire, some ambition, and few coin in his pocket can get his hands on a different engine, fiddle around and make it work, but this manual setup is elusive to say the least. Even I, who wanted to do it, had to look high & low, and it still took me years to gather the info, and necessary pieces to the puzzle. Not to mention the manufacturing end of it.

After all, if you happen to be one of the fortunate ones that has a manual setup in your very rare car, how likely are you to rip it out, and for what reason?

I was talking on the phone with a guy just the other day. He seemed quite knowledgable, but while speaking with him, he seemed to talk in a condescending way. He made a point of qualifying his knowledge base and presenting himself as the so & so from the national this, Mercedes that, club, foundation, Grand Poobah. Whatever man. I let him speak and listened for what knowledge he might have to bestow. We have two ears and one mouth. I'm not always successful, but I try to listen twice as much as I speak. After listening for a while I began to realize that he wasn't contributing anything to the universe, and at that point I'd finally heard enough. When I finally started to tell him what I was doing, I got the impression that he had flattered himself into thinking that I was seeking the wizards advise as to how to accomplish my mission. By the way, once the wizard finally did hear the plan, the world became flat and Mr. Wizard was at the end of the earth. The information chest had suddenly become empty. With the one last card in his possession, the wizard offered it up "Buy a 280SL that has a 5 speed and use that". Are you serious? After repeating myself several times, I'd finally made it clear that I wasn't asking what to do, or even how to do it. I was telling what I was doing, it was an FYI type of thing.

At this point I suddenly feel the need to inform you all that I am in no way holding out a shingle claiming to be some know it all guru. If for some reason you fell that I sound that way, it certainly is not my intent. I do possess a small library of Mercedes, Jaguar, and Porsche literature. I have traveled to several countries, walked through many shops, some big, and small. I've spent considerable amounts of time in junk yards in these countries as well, and I've spoken to countless numbers of people in search of this holy grail. The things that I do know, I could not, did not come up with on my own. I know I'm not that smart. I can tell you this, most of the people that I have spoken with along the way, in those shops were way smarter when it comes to this stuff, and much more knowledgeable then I may ever be. That is where my information comes from. The guy in this story is not one of those people.

Back to the story:

I made the mistake of giving this guy way too much credit. I thought that if he was the Grand Poobah he'd be able to give me a clue. Right? Wrong! As it turns out, I think that he is clueless.

It's going to take me a bit more time to get everything sorted, which will be followed by lot's of testing. Before I am able to present anything to anyone I gotta know that it works as I say it's going to. It should also work on all the 107's, the 350, 450, 500, 380, and 560.

When I get my hands on a 126 SEC I think I may be able to do something with that as well.

Thank you for taking the time to read my little tale, all comments & suggestions (if there are any) whatever they are, will be taken in stride.

A.J.
 

BenzBoy

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Hmm - reminds me of the true story about the gent who wandered into the London showrooms of R-R and ordered a manual Cloud III. When the salesman explained that there was no such car the gent put his money on the table and repeated his request - with the rider that either the order form be filled out on the spot or he would take his money elsewhere (personally I would have taken it to Bristol but that is another story) and of course the whole deal suddenly became possible. Said car recently came up for auction in the UK and there was little interest. Bugger, what a waste!! A manual box - add a supercharger and do a little suspension work and then make a Toyota Ruckus eat dust....nice.
oh, I have just realised what I said. Even Des' VW would make a Ruckus eat dust.:D
Go for it Mr Simpson; life's only what you make it!!
Regards,
Benz-Boy
 

Michel

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Verry interesting posts you've written ajsimpson.

And I agree with you totally.

My questions would be why not a T5 or even a Getrag in 5speed form

or perhaps a T56 6 speed for ultra highway cruising.
 
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ajsimpson

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That's a very good question which also makes it obvious that I haven't yet thought of everything, but with the help of yourself and others keeping me straight, I stand a good chance of getting it right.

To answer your question, I can reply with "I don't know why not".

The reality is, any manual transmission can be used. I only spoke about the ones that I want to be used in my car. For example, I have 3 R154's sitting in the shop, I plan on buying a Richmond to put in the 380, and I will more then likely be able to source one of the Tremecs fairly cheap over time.
I still lack proper Tremec information concerning the mating configuration.
The best that I can hope for is that all of the transmissions in the Tremec line have the came mounting configuration. If I can confirm that then a guy would be free to pick and chose whichever one he wants.

I've got nothing against Getrag, the only issue is that I don't have one.

Ultimately it comes down to making the bell housing fit the particular transmission and I can only work with what I have and with what I can afford.

I need you guys to keep in mind that my first priority was and continues to be setting up my own 380.

A few times I did think about using some sort of conversion mounting plate, say 12.7 - 25.4 mm, but I don't want to do that. It's tacky, and half assed. None of AMG's stuff is tacky or half assed and this won't be either. Besides, you would never get something from the factory like that.
This stuff not only needs to work, but I have to be proud of it too.

Back to the point, the only thing limiting the transmission choice is my own budget.

Well, I'll simply ask you guys for some feed back as to what your thoughts are. This could be like some sort of focus group. There are no right or wrong answers.

1. If you had a chance to add any manual transmission to your car, what would it be?

2. Why is that your choice?

For me, this is the fun part of manufacturing. Getting to make things the way that you want them.

A.J.
[/QUOTE]My questions would be why not a T5 or even a Getrag in 5speed form

or perhaps a T56 6 speed for ultra highway cruising.[/QUOTE]
 

Michel

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A J,

The T5 and T56 boxes are relatively cheap and plentiful in Australia as they were and still are fitted to the Chevrolet V8s in Holdens.
They are extremely strong boxes (personal experience testing) and more than that I would not be able to tel you as I do not have a knowledge of ratios, etc.

BUT.. I do have a friend who is the 'bible' for anything that is Holden.
Known as Dr Terry, there isn't much he doesn't know about them.

I'll ask ands try and get you details.

For me personally, I feel I am past playing with manual for everyday enjoyment.

I would rather be able to fit a four or preferably a five speed automatic to my 690SEL, but that's a subject for another day.
 
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ajsimpson

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Hi Michel,

I'm guessing that those boxes have pretty much the same configuration. If you can confirm that, I'd appreciate it. If possible a diagram would be nice.

As far as not wanting convert to a manual, I'm not mad at you. I appreciate your input.

I'm not delusional, maybe I'd better take that back:)

Seriously, the fact of the matter is the last 560sl to roll off the line (you guys would probably know the answer to that) had to be what? 1990 maybe? Let's just go with that for the sake of argument. Hell, that's a 20 year old car. I have an 85 380, so I do know that my car was made in the last year of production for that model, and that's 25 years old. My 76slc is now 34 years old, and so on, and so on.

The point is, they're not make these cars any more, just like they're not making more land. So, just that fact alone makes it a small to diminishing market. Add a percentage of people like yourself, who are past that stage in their lives, and the percentage drops farther. Add in the purists, and a bunch of other folks for various reasons and your left with a few people such as myself. Heaven only knows what miniscule percentile of people that we're talking about. I'm guessing because the reality is, I have 0 data, but it could be less then 1%. Heck, it could turn out that theres only 1 idiot (yours truly) on the planet that yearns for a setup like this. This is a sentence from my earlier post:

"The thing that jumped out at me was what wasn't happening. No one was doing anything manual."

It could very well turn out that my thinking is flawed (wouldn't be the first time), or my timing is off, or a whole host of reasons that I know nothing about, that could make this idea "RIP"

I have a crystal ball sitting here on my desk, but the damn thing don't work, come to think of it, it never did work. I don't know why I keep it around, I really should get rid of it.

You see, this is not my business. It is very much my passion, and also my hobby, albeit an expensive one.

My fishing in terms of interest is to try and find out if there is a chance anyone else out there that MAY have an interest. You see, I'm already involved in manufacturing and I'm fully versed in the quality control aspect of things. I'm approaching a stage in the process where I have to decide on how to run a final test. In plain english, if for example, I were going sell a kit to you (by the way all items will be made in the US, NOT China) I would have to test it first. This would involve setting up a mock test vehicle, and every unit would be mounted & tested before it leaves my shop. If I know that before hand that there is no chance of selling anything then, I don't have to knock myself out. And, once the pieces that I have get mounted into the car, well all bets are off after that point.

If I am lucky enough to end up with a car that runs, drives, and rides just the way I want it, It'll be pretty darn hard to wipe the :D off of my face.
A.J.
 

SELfor50

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+1 for interest. But it would need to fit an M100 bell housing and be able to take throughput of about 800-1000nm of torquies.. :)
 
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ajsimpson

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I apologize for not knowing all of the different engine numbers. I'm mainly familiar with the 107 line.

It doesn't matter, though, because from looking at your signature, I'm just guessing that the M100 is a 6.9 engine?

I dunno?

It'd be a bit of a stretch to come up with a working solution for something that I don't have.

Can someone tell me what liter engine the M100 is & which car body did it come out of?

A.J.
 

Michel

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Can someone tell me what liter engine the M100 is & which car body did it come out of?
A.J.

M100 is the big Daddy of them all.

Started as a 6.3 in the 600 Grosser/Pullman (600)
used in the 108/109 series also as a 6.3 (300SEL 6.3)
Then used in the W116 as a 6.9 litre engine (450SEL 6.9)

It has the same M100 code for the 3 engines.
 

Michel

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I apologize for not knowing all of the different engine numbers. I'm mainly familiar with the 107 line.
A.J.

A.J.

Please, don't apologise.
We're all enjoying your enthusiasm and awaiting your results.

On another note, I have been promised diagrams.
Also my contact says T5s are plentiful (tens of thousands fitted) in Australia and in the USA.
All Mustangs/Camaros had them (in the US).

In Australia all Holden/Ford V8s had a 5 speed T5, which essentially were a four speed plus overdrive fifth.
 
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ajsimpson

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M100 is the big Daddy of them all.

Started as a 6.3 in the 600 Grosser/Pullman (600)
used in the 108/109 series also as a 6.3 (300SEL 6.3)
Then used in the W116 as a 6.9 litre engine (450SEL 6.9)

It has the same M100 code for the 3 engines.

I wasn't sure, but I had suspected as much.

Trying to get one of those is going to be tuff. Every once in a while I see them come up on Ebay. I do remember seeing one a few years ago, and the guy was practicley giving it away, but at the time I didn't have a truck and it was pretty far away. I wasn't in a position to take advantage of the situation.

I remember having an interest in it at the time, because that was the very first idea that I had for swapping engines into the 380. I finally shy'd away from the idea after noticing the weight distribution.

The side post reads: Manufactured 11/84 - This make it a 1985 model
GVWR= 4190
Weight distribution= 2050/2140 lbs - 930/970 kg

That info quickly changed my thinking because, though the car is heavy, it's weight distribution is pretty damn good.

I can't even venture to guess what that 6.3/6.9 weighs in at, but I believe it's an iron block, similar build type to the 450's. It's gotta weight a ton.

My experience with the Jags gave me a clue, and those V12's are aluminum and they weigh in close to 1000 lbs.

I also remembered seeing other internet browsing where guys put heavier engines into SLC's/ SL's and reading about handling issues. Adding one of those engines up front would pour on the power, no doubt, but at the cost of handling is not something I'd be happy with, so my choice was then limited to the 500, 560. I don't think I'll be unhappy with either of them.

Back in the day when I had no money, (not that I have any now) I did own a 450SEL/6.9. It eventually ended up sitting in the driveway of my mothers house, way more then it got driven. It smoked like a chimney, needed rings and such. I remember the air shocks weren't working, had rust issues. I simply couldn't afford to take care of it's problems. I can't remember what I ended up doing with it, but I do know it had to leave her driveway. LOL! I wish I had it now, though.

Also, besides the bell housing, I don't have a clue as to what the pedal box configuration is on that car? If in fact that's the car the engine is in. If it's been transplanted into a 107, then I can deal with that.

As for the config on the back of that T5. Any info will be nice, although I'll start looking around and try to pick one up on the cheap.

A.J.
 
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