450SE harsh transmission shifts

[riskhunter]

Hi guys,

I'm considering the purchase of a W116 as a weekend car:

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Mercedes-Benz-450SE-1978?R=SSE-AD-816300

It is in beautiful condition, but the transmission shifted from 1st to 2nd quite harshly. Not terrible, but definitely not butter smooth.

As I do not know how these should "feel", does anyone care to give their 2 cents?

Cheers.

 

[BenzBoy]

Well first to second is not butter smooth when cold and when the motor is hot it does even out - but it's never like a modern transmission where you hardly feel the change. The auto box is not expensive to overhaul but perhaps when you get the chance for another test drive check both the transmission fluid level and the colour of the fluid. If the fluid smells burnt or looks dark then maybe even a proper fluid change will fix things. Other people will also reply with their input.
Interesting to see that the car has velour upholstery - was it bought that way? Yes, it was an option but rarely selected.
Regards,
Brian

 

[Styria]

Hi Riskhunter,I'll give you my two bobs' worth, although there are a couple of other members with probably better knowledge than myself about your transmission. Personally, I don't think you have a lot to worry about. However, firstly, check the transmission oil level, with engine warm, and the selector lever in the 'P' position. Secondly, check the oil for colour and odour - if it is brownish, and if it has a somewhat 'foul' smell, both oil and filter should be changed. Whilst the pan is off, examine the bottom for any debris, or metal and linings shavings. Quite often, a transmission service can cure some problems.

Next, endeavour to check adjustment of the vacuum switch at the right side of the gearbox. If it is over-adjusted, you will get harsh shifts. Thirdly, ensure that your accelerator inkage is correctly set-up. That's about it. However, these boxes are reliable and sturdy units, but you'll just have to see what transpires. Regards Styria

 

[BenzBoy]

Actually I have just been back and re-read the advert. It seems to have had a recent transmission service so why not speak to Three Point Classic about their thoughts on the transmission?
If everything else looks good I would probably buy and worry be prepared to do a bit of work if necessary. I won't however, make any comment about the asking price - that is for you to determine.
One of our members, 116Benz, is in QLD and may well be able to advise you. He is not on here often although he passed through recently so you could look him up in the members list and send him a pm.
Regards,
Brian

 

[riskhunter]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Yes, it was imported from the UK, so that might be why the velour?

In terms of pricing, I think this is the most expensive one I've seen advertised. What would you be willing to pay? Much less?

 

[BenzBoy]

For what it's worth, consider the following from Glass' Guide:


MERCEDES-BENZ 450 SE
Vehicle information
4D SEDAN, 1978, 4.5 lt, 3 SP AUTOMATIC
Estimated valuations
Private sale:$5,940 - $6,750Trade-in:$4,400 - $5,400Dealer price:$7,030 - $8,360View valuation details

Disclaimer

* This valuation data is provided by Glass's Information Services It is intended to provide you with an indicative range to assist in the sale or purchase of a used vehicle. Motor vehicle values change frequently and are influenced by a range of factors including, condition, distance travelled, options, manufacturer marketing actions, economic and dealer stocking policies. Values are based on a vehicle averaging up to 20,000km per annum and being in a well maintained condition relevant to its age. Glass's Information Services (GIS) has exercised all reasonable care and skill in producing this information. GIS gathers its information from independent sources within the Motor Trade, unconnected with it, and as a result can accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any information supplied.

 

[Michel]

In reality the car is worth only what people are prepared to pay.

Look around, check all adverts and see if there is anything else that might interest you and compare prices.

Certainly this one is not at the lower end of the market (for a 450SE).

And then there are other considerations.

Some like SE models because they are shorter and thus lighter and perceived to be quicker of the mark.

Some others would prefer le longer wheelbase SEL because of its generous rear leg room.

Is the V8 a must?
Would you consider a six?

 

[riskhunter]

It doesn't matter to me whether SE or SEL. They're both big enough.

V8 is also not necessary, but nice to have. Plus, it was surprisingly fast.

There are very few of these for sale in any state, let alone QLD. My only real concern is that I don't pay "too much." As with any car this age, it's difficult to ascertain what the real price should be.

The car is not immaculate, but very good nevertheless. There's a dent by the left badge on the bootlid. The dash is cracked, as is the wood veneer by the gear selector. One of the drivers' seat rest springs is busted, so you sit slightly uncomfortably on the seat. It drives very nicely though, and it is evident that it's been well taken care of.

So $9950 is a lot of money for what is "only" a 450SE, that would still need some TLC (although not much). Looking through all the W116 ads on Carsales (bar the 6.9), I would say $7500 is a lot closer to the mark, and still above the majority of the market.

To me, $9950 is therefore overpriced. Of course, owner does not have to sell, he will put in storage, so he has no pressure...

I'm not looking to get a bargain. We are after all talking about a car worth less than 10K, which in the grand scheme of things is not very much at all. I don't need this car at all, but it would be nice to have!

 

[BenzBoy]

I would still go for the V8.
You're quite right - it's all "loose change" territory but at that price I would not expect either dents or cracks.
Regards,
Brian

 

[Styria]

I have seen enough of the car by way of photo(s) to declare it a nice, and well kept car. Having regard to your summary of condition of car, and the issues to be dealt with, it is my suggestion that $5500.00 should be the maximum you could consider paying. I think you will find that if you hang around long enough, you will get it for that figure.

Rectifying a split dash will cost quite a bit of money - nowadays, the refurbishing facilities are very much centralized. In other words, not a lot of choice of where to get them done. There is a trimmer in Sydney that caters for cracked dashes, but I believe he charges about $900.00, and that does not include removal and refitting. Luckily enough, I still have an alternative source, but you're still looking at $550.00. So, be a bit careful, and patient. Regards Styria

 

[riskhunter]

I think I'll struggle to bring it down to half its advertised value!

 

[Michel]

riskhunter, you might want to consider this good looking W116

http://www.topklasse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4554

It is not a V8, but it looks stunning!

 

[sean sherry]

In Queensland there is a Transmission Specialist who sorts all the Early Automatics for the South Queensland Dealers. He is down at the Gold Coast.
Patrick Burns 07 55937456.....0409645573
He helped me with my 4 speed '81, and the consensus was that these boxes are very hard to get the shifting smooth in all gears. He says that sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. You can play around with the valve body springs all day and end up back where you started.
He will road test your car and give you a straight answer..... Sean

 

[Styria]

In Queensland there is a Transmission Specialist who sorts all the Early Automatics for the South Queensland Dealers. He is down at the Gold Coast.
Patrick Burns 07 55937456.....0409645573
He helped me with my 4 speed '81, and the consensus was that these boxes are very hard to get the shifting smooth in all gears. He says that sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. You can play around with the valve body springs all day and end up back where you started.
He will road test your car and give you a straight answer..... Sean

Sean, playing around with valve body springs - ain't that a very dangerous task, and should only be undertaken by a super super, duper duper tranny specialist - it's my understanding, that Mercedes have just about the most difficult und complex valve body that could be installed in any car. Just getting back to the original thread, I wonder whatever happened in the end ? Does anyone know ?

BTW Sean, would be really nice to see you at the TK gathering on the 9th June. Any chance ? Regards Styria

 

[Helmet]

Sean, playing around with valve body springs - ain't that a very dangerous task, and should only be undertaken by a super super, duper duper tranny specialist - it's my understanding, that Mercedes have just about the most difficult und complex valve body that could be installed in any car. Just getting back to the original thread, I wonder whatever happened in the end ? Does anyone know ?

BTW Sean, would be really nice to see you at the TK gathering on the 9th June. Any chance ? Regards Styria

FYI Styria there is a company in the US that has developed spring kits to improve shifts on the 722.3 and 722.4/5 boxes. Never seen one for a 722.1 , they don't need it if all is well. The op may have had a manifold vacuum leak that can cause the same systems.

 

[sean sherry]

Yes and yes. Low vacuum will cause harsh shifts, the modulator can have a field day with no one to keep it in check.
My particular problem with flaring 3-4 light throttle shifts , though now ok, can be sorted with a change in the tension of the K2 Accumulator spring. Mercedes valve bodies, though complex , can be righted. They break springs and the Accumulator springs loose their tension over time. A new or a stronger spring , depending on the extent of the flare will fix the flare. Coupled with a modulator adjustment , winding it in.
Providing of course that the is not an internal problem i.e, time for a re-build.
Changing Valve body springs is not for the faint hearted, but can be done through trial and error. A Transmission mechanic , who know these transmissions, will know what weight springs to use first time.

But as Patrick in Q/ Land says don't expect miracles.