420SEL vs 560SEL

[Oversize]

Anyone know the differences apart from the engine capacity? Are any of the engine internals interchangeable? Would a 560 crank, rods n pistons fit in a 420 block, or were the bores different too? Were the heads different? What about the brakes, transmission and diff? Did the 420 have an electric back seat option? Any other bells that the 560 had standard and the 420 did not?

 

[SEL_69L]

The M116 and M117 were two families of engines:

M116 3.5l. cast iron block alloy heads installed in R107's, W108's and W116's
M116 3.8l. all alloy installed in R107's and W126's
M116 4.2l. all alloy installed in R107's and W126's

M117 4.5l. cast iron block alloy heads installed in R107's W108's and W116's
M117 5.0l. all alloy installed in R107's and W126's
M117 5.6l. all alloy installed in R107's (roadsters only), and W126's

There are differences in engine mountings and exhaust manifolds for each installation.
There are differences in engine management and fuel injection design across the models.

Dunno about any variation in engine internals for particular engine capacity, across the models.

I do know that they all share the same air cleaner design, but there are minor differences in mounting bracket attachment to the camshaft covers across the models. Perhaps there are some other differences as well, such as water pumps.

 

[Styria]

Mark, I will endeavour to answer you properly in due course. There are a number of publications etc. that I will need to peruse to give you the answers you are looking for. My 420SEL has the electric back seat reclining option, but no sunroof nor cruise control.

Switching back to 560SEL only, I do believe there were some variations in features and specifications from whence the model was introduced, and by the time it was discontinued in 1991 (I think), a period of some five years. I did read a most comprehensive appraisal about two or three years back, but I can't even remember the source. Regards Styria

 

[abl567]

560SEL has cigar lighters in the ashtrays in the rear doors.

After next week I may be able to provide more differences.
If it is purchased by a friend of mine from the M-100 group I'm flying to Perth Friday or late Thursday to help him drive a '91 560SEL back to Sydney.

Hope he buys it

 

[260ebenz]

560SEL has cigar lighters in the ashtrays in the rear doors.

After next week I may be able to provide more differences.
If it is purchased by a friend of mine from the M-100 group I'm flying to Perth Friday or late Thursday to help him drive a '91 560SEL back to Sydney.

Hope he buys it

Hello Ant is this the 560SEL for sale in WA?

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Mercedes-Benz-560SEL-1990/SSE-AD-2195737/?Cr=2&sdmvc=1

 

[abl567]

Yep

 

[260ebenz]

Nice car.

Ant 4000kms in 4 days now that is alot of driving.

Hope all goes well with the car.

 

[SEL_69L]

I would have the buyer drive it extensively (say 200 klm) and have it inspected closely for brakes hoses, belts etc before the trip overland from Perth.
Not worth the cost of training across, or is it the prospect of adventure that attracts?

 

[abl567]

It will be subject to a pre purchase inspection and if purchased given a major service including hoses and belts and new tyres if required. The potential purchaser spares no expense when it comes to his cars

And yes the decision to drive back was swayed by the adventure component

 

[c107]

This is an old thread, but as I was driving my 560SEL the other day, I was trying to work out what you got extra between the 420SEL and the 560SEL, which had a difference in price of around AUD$50,000 in 1987. An amount of money that probably bought you a small apartment.

here is what I came up with - note that this is specific to Australian delivery models where the base 420 was highly specced up vs private imports.

1) Larger and more powerful engine - 180 vs 150 kw
2) Reclining rear seat as standard (optional on the 420)
3) Fanfare horn
4) rear cigar lighters
5) LSD as standard
6) Becker CD player vs Becker Cassette player

On the current market the 560 is the one to have, but when new It is hard to justify the difference in price unless you simply must have top of the range.

Basically (before on road costs) you could have

300SE - $125,000
420SEL - $145,000
560SEL - $195,000

On the 420, you got SLS, alloys, sunroof, leather etc as standard in Australia.

 

[Patrick_R]

But the “town & country” horns are so good!
Surely worth the price difference

 

[c107]

and here is a 1991 price list, I think by then there were a few more things standard on the top models like Airbags, ASR and the like, but I do not have a brochure from that year.

 

[c107]

Found a few more differences:

1) Larger and more powerful engine - 180 vs 150 kw
2) Reclining rear seat as standard (optional on the 420)
3) Fanfare horn
4) rear cigar lighters
5) LSD as standard
6) Becker CD player vs Becker Cassette player

New

7) 260km/h speedometer vs 240km/h
8) Dual snorkel air cleaner
9) Anti-Squat rear suspension / Anti-Dive front suspension

 

[c107]

Updated again: Found a few more differences:

1) Larger and more powerful engine - 180 vs 150 kw
2) Reclining rear seat as standard (optional on the 420)
3) Fanfare horn
4) rear cigar lighters
5) LSD as standard
6) Becker CD player vs Becker Cassette player
7) 260km/h speedometer vs 240km/h
8) Dual snorkel air cleaner
9) Anti-Squat rear suspension / Anti-Dive front suspension
10) Memory electric seats for driver and passenger as standard (420 had non memory seats as standard, and maybe got memory for driver only late in production, not sure. Memory seats were an option for the 420)

 

[Styria]

I am surprised that the 560 only has a power output of 180KW as compared with 212 for the 6.9. Yet, the 560 has a slightly better acceleration time to 100 km/hour. Weight penalty ? 4 speed gearbox for the 560 ? Regards. Styria

 

[Oversize]

You have to compare apples with apples. The Oz & Euro versions of both cars were very different. Yet the Oz cars seem more desirable here despite the fact we got very few options, far less power & rubbish diff ratios. Unless they’re full of rust, a grey import is a no brainer for me!!

 

[c107]

You have to compare apples with apples. The Oz & Euro versions of both cars were very different. Yet the Oz cars seem more desirable here despite the fact we got very few options, far less power & rubbish diff ratios. Unless they’re full of rust, a grey import is a no brainer for me!!

yes, exactly, better to compare AU 6.9 with AU 560 and high comp 6.9 with ECE 560.

I did a quick comparison on automobile-catalog.com which has all the specs. I used the USA versions as they are very similar to the Australian ones. I also compared the non ECE european 560.

A few things jumped out:

1) W126 is a huge improvement in aerodynamics. 0.4CD vs 0.33 that translates to a Drag area of 0.875m2 on the W116 to 0.703m2 on the w126
2) W116 is 150kg heavier.
3) W126 has four gears, but they are spaced differently so the other factors are more important.


The Specs:

Power:
6.9 US: 187KW / 488Nm
6.9 EU: 210Kw / 550Nm
560 US: 178KW (AU is 180) / 389Nm
560 EU: 205KW / 430Nm
560 ECE: 220KW / 455 Nm

Power to weight:
6.9 US: 93.3 watt/kg
6.9 EU: 108.5 watt/kg
560 US: 97 watt/kg
560 EU: 112 watt/kg
560 ECE: 121.8 watt.kg

0-100km / 160km / 200km
6.9 US: 8.9s / 22.3 / 45
6.9 EU: 7.2s / 18 / 34.6
560 US: 8.1s / 21.7 / 43.7
560 EU: 7.2s / 17.7 / 33
560 ECE: 6.7s / 16.6 / 30.8

so what we get if we run a 1/4 mile drag race:
The US 6.9 and 560 are almost identical in performance. At the end of the race, the 560 is 8m ahead, but actually travelling slightly slower (138km/h vs 141km/h)

The standard european 560 with cat and the european 6.9 are similar too
again, only 8m difference at the end of the race (560 ahead), and almost identical speed, the 6.9 going 149km/h and the 560 148km/h

The ECE 560 is significantly faster, it is now 22meters ahead of the 6.9 and traveling at 151km/h.

These differences are small enough, that if you lined up and Australian 6.9 and an Australian 560 in a race, the one with the engine in the best shape would win. Same for a european 560. The ECE engines are another level of performanance again. Owning an Australian 560 and an ECE 560, the ECE is faster to rev and has more urgency. The Australian car likes to cruise more.

 

[c107]

Those torque figures are particularly impressive and I would imagine the oil stays very filtered with those 4 oil filters!

 

[c107]

Since this thread was about the 420SEL vs the 560SEL, I did another comparison to see the performance difference.# I also included the 300SE as these were basically the 3 W126 models of the second generation you could choose from in Australia (300SEL and 420SE are not common).#

Curb Weight:#
300SE: 1520kg
420SEL: 1740kg
560SEL: 1830kg

Power:#
300SE: 132kW / 255Nm
420SEL: 150kW / 309Nm
560SEL: 178kW / 389Nm#

Power to weight:
300SE 86.8 watt/Kg
420SEL: 86.2 watt/kg
560SEL: 97 watt/kg

Rear End:
300SE: 3.46:1
420SEL: 2.47:1
560SEL: 2.47:1

0-100km/h / 0-160 / 0-200
300SE: 9.5 / 25.3 / 57.1
420SEL: 9.4 / 26 / 63.9
560SEL: 8.1 / 21.7 / 43.7

If we run the drag race again:#The really tall ratio of the 420 means that the 300SE beats it by 14m and 4s, with the 560 15m ahead of the 300.# At the Quarter mile mark, the 300 is doing 136km/h, the 420 131km/h and the 560 138km/h.#

This to me illustrates that the rear end ratio of the emissions 420 is too tall.# #They should have used the 2.82 pr 2.88 gearsets.# # I also prefer the 2.65 in the 560 that the european models got.##

 

[Patrick_R]

Sorry Bryce.

All posts deleted.